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Is he a fake or does he deserve the belt?
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Fake |
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65% |
[ 28 ] |
Real |
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34% |
[ 15 ] |
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| Total Votes : 43 |
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YoungMan
Blue Belt
Joined: 14 May 2007
Posts: 258
Location: Somewhere in Michigan
Styles: Tae Kwon Do Chung Do Kwan, some Aikido
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 Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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What organization issued Helio Gracie his black belt? If he never claimed to have a black belt, and built his reputation purely on skill, that's one thing. If he claims black belt, but was never issued one through any organization, or gave one to himself, that's quite another.
I'm not denying Gracie his skills, merely saying you can't claim black belt if you never received one. Regardless of how great an inventor you are, you can't claim to be a high school or college graduate if you never received a diploma. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 11994
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo,Hapkido, SCA Combat, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| ps1 wrote: |
More Devil's Advocate here:
Helio Gracie never had any lessons in Jujitsu. Anyone think he or his family are fake black belts? |
The family members actually received training from a Judo stylist from Japan, if my memory serves me correctly. Maeda was his name?
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Success is where preparation meets opportunity.
www.chiefswarpath.com |
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KarateEd
KF Sempai
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
Posts: 510
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| YoungMan wrote: |
| Regardless of how great an inventor you are, you can't claim to be a high school or college graduate if you never received a diploma. |
Excellent point, YoungMan. I was curious as to why the guy felt he needed to purchase a black belt in the first place. If he trained so much and had outstanding skills, isn't that good enough? Why go buy a black belt unless he was trying, in his mind, to legitimize his training, or so he could tell people that he "was a black belt." Boxers don't utilize a system of color or black belts but that doesn't make them any less effective at their fighting art.
Finally, many systems/schools require a black belt candidate to be able to instruct others (and actually do it). If this fellow only trained by himself, he missed out on one of the hallmarks of many systems' black belt requirements.
My $0.02 worth,
Ed
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"Let us not look back in anger or forward in fear, but around in awareness."
-- James Thurber |
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ps1
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 1671
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| ps1 wrote: |
More Devil's Advocate here:
Helio Gracie never had any lessons in Jujitsu. Anyone think he or his family are fake black belts? |
The family members actually received training from a Judo stylist from Japan, if my memory serves me correctly. Maeda was his name? |
True. However, because he was ill, Helio was not one of those family members. He never received any formal training at all. He watched his brother teach private lessons for years. One day a private lesson showed up and Carlos was not there to teach him. Helio taught the private lesson in his stead. The student was so impressed with Helio's ability that he asked Carlos if Helio could be his teacher from then on.
A great book to get is called "The Gracie Way." It is all about the history of the Gracie family.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 11994
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo,Hapkido, SCA Combat, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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Cool, ps1. Thanks for the title; I'll look into it.
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Success is where preparation meets opportunity.
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YoungMan
Blue Belt
Joined: 14 May 2007
Posts: 258
Location: Somewhere in Michigan
Styles: Tae Kwon Do Chung Do Kwan, some Aikido
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| KarateEd wrote: |
| YoungMan wrote: |
| Regardless of how great an inventor you are, you can't claim to be a high school or college graduate if you never received a diploma. |
Excellent point, YoungMan. I was curious as to why the guy felt he needed to purchase a black belt in the first place. If he trained so much and had outstanding skills, isn't that good enough? Why go buy a black belt unless he was trying, in his mind, to legitimize his training, or so he could tell people that he "was a black belt." Boxers don't utilize a system of color or black belts but that doesn't make them any less effective at their fighting art.
Finally, many systems/schools require a black belt candidate to be able to instruct others (and actually do it). If this fellow only trained by himself, he missed out on one of the hallmarks of many systems' black belt requirements.
My $0.02 worth,
Ed |
In this country, we understand martial arts only inasmuch as we know someone's rank. In other words, one of the first things we ask when we meet someone who studies MA, or claims to study, is "what rank do you hold?" There is nothing wrong with this, because it gives us a frame of reference to something we are still not entirely familiar with. We do not ask this question of boxers or wrestlers because we know they do not use rank. It is based on different culture than Oriental martial arts.
Someone could train themselves for a long time. But unless they hold a rank given to them by someone in legitimate recognition of meeting certain criteria, it doesn't mean much.
Personally, I'd be VERY suspicious of someone who trained themselves without participating in organized class. Musicians do it all the time. But martial arts is a very physically and mentally demanding activity, and I find it extremely hard to believe that an untrained novice could reach the equivalent of black belt without formal instruction. And thinking that buying a black belt legitimizes his training, to me, is absurd. It not only doesn't legitmize it, it demeans everyone who did put the time and effort in class and went through the sweat and aggravation with classmates. |
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KarateEd
KF Sempai
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
Posts: 510
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| YoungMan wrote: |
| And thinking that buying a black belt legitimizes his training, to me, is absurd. It not only doesn't legitimize it, it demeans everyone who did put the time and effort in class and went through the sweat and aggravation with classmates. |
I didn't say it legitimized his training, I said that his motivation in buying a black belt may have been, in his mind, to legitimize his training. In other words, wearing this black belt, to him, would make his training seem worthwhile or authoritative.
I agree that such an attitude demeans the efforts of everyone that has earned their black belt through the proper methods and channels. 
Ed
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YoungMan
Blue Belt
Joined: 14 May 2007
Posts: 258
Location: Somewhere in Michigan
Styles: Tae Kwon Do Chung Do Kwan, some Aikido
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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Not too far from where I live, there is a Korean gentleman who owns and runs a martial arts supply shop. It is the definition of a family store. He knows, either by name or face, many of the Instructors in the area. He also hand stitches black belts for these Instructors.
If you go in there and order a black belt, and he doesn't recognize you, he will most likely ask who you are, what you practice, and who your Instructor is. If you tell him you practice by yourself and want a black belt for your self, as opposed to your Instructor giving you one or you making one for a student, he will most likely refuse to do it. He has bills to pay like everyone else, but he also has a good reputation in the local MA community for his integrity. |
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mantis.style
Orange Belt
Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:35 am Post subject: |
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I have never had a black belt; mainly because I don't belong to a school that use them now or in the past. I do have people that have asked me to "teach" them though. In a similar vein, I am no instructor nor am I qualified or experienced in my styles to really teach. But these people felt that I could show them things. Should I teach or not? This, I think, is a more important question. What makes a person qulaified to teach. I mean, we all know that black belt means little. In the best cases, it means that the studenr have finally learnt the basics and can now get on with learning how to fight but does that mean he can teach the basics if you take into account that they in all likelihood have little experience in using those basics?
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traditional chinese saying:
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 11994
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo,Hapkido, SCA Combat, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:02 am Post subject: |
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If you think that you can help someone learn a few basics, then go ahead. After all, you learn just as much from teaching as you do from many other things. Ideally, you will want to up front with someone about how you view your teaching abilities, and perhaps how you feel about learning the MAs in general. That will help to guide your way.
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Success is where preparation meets opportunity.
www.chiefswarpath.com |
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on the post.
