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ps1
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 1705
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ
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 Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:03 am Post subject: |
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While I agree that the nature of the training for boxing and wrestling is what makes it very effective. But that same type of training can and should be applied to those who train for self defense reasons.
Here's a small example of what I'm saying. In wrestling, all movement must be circular or toward the opponent. So, in the BJJ academy I train in, when wrestlers come in, they initially have problems using take downs because they're not used to someone simply backing away as they shoot. Of course, they eventuall adapt and learn stratagies to use them in new situations. Those stratagies are what can seperate a martial art from a sport and can mean life and death.
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Rainbow_Warrior
Blue Belt
Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 349
Styles: Now : MMA/luta livre/Thai , before :Kung fu,kick boxing , boxing, amateur wrestling
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| DokterVet wrote: |
| Who doesn't think wrestling is a martial art? |
Many Martial artists . I think that western disciplines are MA , like some of you agree.
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| And, in the US, wrestling is predominantly trained for sport. |
Yes. And I have seen many good wrestlers fighting like apes in street when I was living in Minnesota , that did not use their good wrestling skills .
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ps1
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 1705
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
The rules are what tends to hurt the wrestlers more, but after some time in BJJ, they will adapt, like anyone else. Just because there are rules, however, doesn't discount the fact that it can't be a useful MA. That was the big thing with judo; make some rules to allow for more realistic training. BJJ has been a benefactor of Kano's visionary changes to JJJ. Since wrestling is used as primarily a sport, like judo, then the rules are still carried with it. It also has different goals, like pinning the opponent, not making them tap out. In TKD, the rules I fight under don't encourage tapping someone out, but it does allow win by knockout, so there is just a difference in rules. |
You're echoing what I'm saying here. There is no doubt in my mind that a boxer could defend him/herself quite competently in many situations, probably better than many Karateka I know. I believe this would be due to the way he trains. He/she is used to contact and used to a high stress situation. As I said above:
| ps1 wrote: |
...most of the above mentioned sports can be trained and used for self defense. It's really about purpose of training more than anything. And, in the US, wrestling is predominantly trained for sport.
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I totally see where you're coming from. I agree with most of the points you make. I just feel that any combative art that is being used for sport is a combative sport. That goes for other arts such as Kendo and Kyudo as well. They exclude much of what their predicessors deemed necessary to success in combat. The purpose of training dictates everything. Once that wrestler learns to adapt to things that fall outside of the rules of the sport, it could well become a martial art. But in that situation it is no longer being trained for sport use.
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elbows_and_knees
Black Belt
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 1795
Styles: thai boxing, grappling
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| Rainbow_Warrior wrote: |
| DokterVet wrote: |
| Who doesn't think wrestling is a martial art? |
Many Martial artists . I think that western disciplines are MA , like some of you agree.
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| And, in the US, wrestling is predominantly trained for sport. |
Yes. And I have seen many good wrestlers fighting like apes in street when I was living in Minnesota , that did not use their good wrestling skills . |
Wrestling is indeed an MA. And yes, a wrestler may swing like an ape, if they are swinging instead of doing their takedowns. But it works great in altercations. I watch my coworkers use it all the time. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 12924
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo,Hapkido, SCA Combat, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:24 pm Post subject: About Wrestling |
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This idea just popped into my head, and I thought I would mention it here.
We all pretty much know that wrestling is a big sport/MA in the U.S., starting with kids wrestling programs, and ranging up to high school, college, and into the Olympics. However, why doesn't anyone who has wrestled in high school and not gone onto college, or even retired college wrestlers, try to start a gym open to the public, to train in wrestling, in which they could easily modify the techniques and the rules to make it self-defense oriented? There could be a lot of possibilities there.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 12924
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo,Hapkido, SCA Combat, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:33 pm Post subject: About Wrestling |
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| ps1 wrote: |
| Here's a small example of what I'm saying. In wrestling, all movement must be circular or toward the opponent. So, in the BJJ academy I train in, when wrestlers come in, they initially have problems using take downs because they're not used to someone simply backing away as they shoot. Of course, they eventuall adapt and learn stratagies to use them in new situations. Those stratagies are what can seperate a martial art from a sport and can mean life and death. |
This is a good point you make, comparing the sport aspect of wrestling to that of BJJ. However, let's say that you bring in a very self-defense oriented style, like for the sake of argument, traditional karate. Even though he trains soley for self-defense/combat, he is still going to have an adaptation period to match the skills of the BJJ practitioner. The fact that he trains for combat is not going to help him against the BJJer anymore than the wrestler, even though he just trains as a sportster. As a matter of opinion, I would say that the wrestler's knowledge of how things work on the ground would be a benefactor to him, and the karateka would have a greater learning curve, due to the lack of experience on the ground.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 12924
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo,Hapkido, SCA Combat, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| ps1 wrote: |
I believe Wrestling, boxing, thai boxing, mma, xma, olympic tkd and anyother system being trained soley for sport are combative or martial sports. |
I am just going to single out TKD here, as it is my style of preference. There are a lot of TKD competitors out there, but many of them also have self-defense training of some kind, as it is usually part of the curriculums of their classes. I think this relates more to ITF stylists than WTF, as WTF is the governing body for Olympic TKD. However, the ones that excel at the tournament game also begin to specialize their training more, and it seems that it is all they do.
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ps1
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 1705
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: About Wrestling |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
This idea just popped into my head, and I thought I would mention it here.
We all pretty much know that wrestling is a big sport/MA in the U.S., starting with kids wrestling programs, and ranging up to high school, college, and into the Olympics. However, why doesn't anyone who has wrestled in high school and not gone onto college, or even retired college wrestlers, try to start a gym open to the public, to train in wrestling, in which they could easily modify the techniques and the rules to make it self-defense oriented? There could be a lot of possibilities there. |
Actually, there are alot of "recreational" type wrestling leagues. I'm sure that it depends on where you live and such.
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
This is a good point you make, comparing the sport aspect of wrestling to that of BJJ. However, let's say that you bring in a very self-defense oriented style, like for the sake of argument, traditional karate. Even though he trains soley for self-defense/combat, he is still going to have an adaptation period to match the skills of the BJJ practitioner. The fact that he trains for combat is not going to help him against the BJJer anymore than the wrestler, even though he just trains as a sportster. As a matter of opinion, I would say that the wrestler's knowledge of how things work on the ground would be a benefactor to him, and the karateka would have a greater learning curve, due to the lack of experience on the ground. |
I definitely see what you're saying here. But I think a better comparison for karate would be boxing. The reason I say this is because we need to compare apples to apples. Wrestling is to BJJ as Karate is to Boxing (Muai Thai). In the end, it goes back to how they trained. If they trained karate as I, unfortunately, have seen many train; with very little contact and difficulty (Shugyo), they will have a difficult time. But if they train hard, with shugyo and contact, they may not have the same difficulty. If a karateka, Kyokushin..for an example, trained hard, they could best a boxer. A poorly trained one would likely loose miserably. I'm writing this quickly so if it doesn't make sense let me know.
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| I am just going to single out TKD here, as it is my style of preference. There are a lot of TKD competitors out there, but many of them also have self-defense training of some kind, as it is usually part of the curriculums of their classes. I think this relates more to ITF stylists than WTF, as WTF is the governing body for Olympic TKD. However, the ones that excel at the tournament game also begin to specialize their training more, and it seems that it is all they do. |
I thought I specified "olympic" TKD. If I didn't, I meant to.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 12924
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo,Hapkido, SCA Combat, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:20 am Post subject: |
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You did specify Olympic TKD, but I just wanted to point out that they probably began by learning a more self-defense oriented style.
And I also see what you are saying about comparing apples to apples, and makes sense.
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ps1
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 1705
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
You did specify Olympic TKD, but I just wanted to point out that they probably began by learning a more self-defense oriented style.
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You're probably right on that one. I don't think many people walk into a TKD school, without training, and tell the instructor their primary reason for training is to get into the olympics.
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on the post.
