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ramblinman
White Belt
Joined: 23 Sep 2016
Posts: 2
Styles: Shotokan-American Style
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 Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:21 am Post subject: Advice for sparring a person who wants you to chase them |
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First time poster here hoping to get some advice.
I'm an experienced martial artist, practicing karate for 25+ years. When I am focused on sparring, I would say more "point" type sparring like for AAU and open tournaments (and thus for practice in my dojo each week).
The type of opponent I've always had the most trouble with is the person who wants you to chase them constantly. I have a few people I go up against who seem to have one trick up their sleeve....they bounce around and away simply waiting for the time to throw a single rear hand punch.
I have a lot of moves and fakes and such up my sleeve and certainly I use a rear hand, but it seems like a lot of the point fighters just bounce around waiting to throw a rear punch.
So one person in particular is very good at just constantly bouncing around. He rarely attacks, is just moving. I've tried to just stand and look at him and make him come to me and he just bounces around. It's almost funny to watch at that point. I've tried throwing hook kicks and round kicks going in the direction he's trying to circle, which helps a bit. I have won 2 of 2 matches against him (one person I'm thinking of in particular) but I don't feel confident in my approach.
Any techniques people use when fighting an opponent like this?
Thank you. |
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Tempest
Green Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 424
Location: Dallas
Styles: Judo, HEMA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:51 am Post subject: |
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Press him or her. Take away the space he needs to do that. If the rules don't forbid it, press him out of the ring or contest area. Stay defensive and use good parries until you are ready, but the best way to deal with someone who needs a lot of room to fight, is to take away their room to fight.
Alternatively, presuming you have enough room, bait him or her. Leave an opening that anyone would have to throw at, but be ready with the counter.
See, the problem with a defensive movement strategy is it cedes control of the fight to your opponent. Now this is fine if you were not going to control the fight anyway, but it does leave you vulnerable to a canny and patient opponent.
Be patient, and pick a strategy. Press them out or bait them, your choice.
_________________
Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused. |
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| ramblinman wrote: |
So one person in particular is very good at just constantly bouncing around. He rarely attacks, is just moving. I've tried to just stand and look at him and make him come to me and he just bounces around. It's almost funny to watch at that point. I've tried throwing hook kicks and round kicks going in the direction he's trying to circle, which helps a bit. I have won 2 of 2 matches against him (one person I'm thinking of in particular) but I don't feel confident in my approach.
Any techniques people use when fighting an opponent like this? |
If you've won both times, does it matter if he bounces around?
If the problem is with him avoiding you all the time, does he react at all when you throw your attacks? Could it be that he isn't convinced by your fakes?
_________________
"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
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ramblinman
White Belt
Joined: 23 Sep 2016
Posts: 2
Styles: Shotokan-American Style
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| DWx wrote: |
| ramblinman wrote: |
So one person in particular is very good at just constantly bouncing around. He rarely attacks, is just moving. I've tried to just stand and look at him and make him come to me and he just bounces around. It's almost funny to watch at that point. I've tried throwing hook kicks and round kicks going in the direction he's trying to circle, which helps a bit. I have won 2 of 2 matches against him (one person I'm thinking of in particular) but I don't feel confident in my approach.
Any techniques people use when fighting an opponent like this? |
If you've won both times, does it matter if he bounces around?
If the problem is with him avoiding you all the time, does he react at all when you throw your attacks? Could it be that he isn't convinced by your fakes? |
I've fought him three times now and winning 3 times by somewhat slim margins (in my view) doesn't mean I don't want to become better. Also, as much as I try to mix my approach up, he's also sizing me up and getting gradually better.
My fakes have been effective on him about 70% of the time. My problem is that anything I do, a fake, a punch, footwork, causes this guy to take about two huge bounces back or to the side. He is the type to constantly back up or move to the side (at a great distance) waiting for the chance to either throw a single rear hand punch or lunge with 3 sloppy head shots that are just punch/punch/punch. Not saying either is ineffective, just looking for ways for me to use some techniques to be more effective.
I've tried using a fake in one direction to get him moving in the other, then I use kicks to corner him off.
Everyone else in my dojo spends the entire match chasing this guy around and I have vowed I am not going to do that. They wear themselves out, and this guy just constantly dodges and bounces around as soon as the fight begins. I have stood in one position while he is about 2 feet away just bouncing left, right, up and down, and the other students started to see how silly the whole thing was.
Sorry if I'm rambling or it doesn't make sense. Thanks. |
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| ramblinman wrote: |
| DWx wrote: |
| ramblinman wrote: |
So one person in particular is very good at just constantly bouncing around. He rarely attacks, is just moving. I've tried to just stand and look at him and make him come to me and he just bounces around. It's almost funny to watch at that point. I've tried throwing hook kicks and round kicks going in the direction he's trying to circle, which helps a bit. I have won 2 of 2 matches against him (one person I'm thinking of in particular) but I don't feel confident in my approach.
Any techniques people use when fighting an opponent like this? |
If you've won both times, does it matter if he bounces around?
If the problem is with him avoiding you all the time, does he react at all when you throw your attacks? Could it be that he isn't convinced by your fakes? |
I've fought him three times now and winning 3 times by somewhat slim margins (in my view) doesn't mean I don't want to become better. Also, as much as I try to mix my approach up, he's also sizing me up and getting gradually better.
My fakes have been effective on him about 70% of the time. My problem is that anything I do, a fake, a punch, footwork, causes this guy to take about two huge bounces back or to the side. He is the type to constantly back up or move to the side (at a great distance) waiting for the chance to either throw a single rear hand punch or lunge with 3 sloppy head shots that are just punch/punch/punch. Not saying either is ineffective, just looking for ways for me to use some techniques to be more effective.
I've tried using a fake in one direction to get him moving in the other, then I use kicks to corner him off.
Everyone else in my dojo spends the entire match chasing this guy around and I have vowed I am not going to do that. They wear themselves out, and this guy just constantly dodges and bounces around as soon as the fight begins. I have stood in one position while he is about 2 feet away just bouncing left, right, up and down, and the other students started to see how silly the whole thing was.
Sorry if I'm rambling or it doesn't make sense. Thanks. |
OK so if I understand correctly he just moves back or to the side when he thinks you are to attack? I see there being two things you can do really: keep pushing forward attacking and cutting him off either until he steps out of bounds or you close down on him. A win by the opponent collecting penalties is still a win. Alternatively you would need to cut off his sideways movement and intercept.
Now the other half of it is looking at his attacks and what you can do to counter attack that. It seems as if he is throwing the rear hand as an attack itself rather than a counter? If it's an attack, a rear hand punch on it's own is horribly easy to counter and he must have "tells" or signs that he is about to do this and will leave himself open. Do you have any videos of either of you? Kinda hard to advise without seeing the movement.
_________________
"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2358
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:57 pm Post subject: Re: Advice for sparring a person who wants you to chase them |
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| ramblinman wrote: |
First time poster here hoping to get some advice.
I'm an experienced martial artist, practicing karate for 25+ years. When I am focused on sparring, I would say more "point" type sparring like for AAU and open tournaments (and thus for practice in my dojo each week).
The type of opponent I've always had the most trouble with is the person who wants you to chase them constantly. I have a few people I go up against who seem to have one trick up their sleeve....they bounce around and away simply waiting for the time to throw a single rear hand punch.
I have a lot of moves and fakes and such up my sleeve and certainly I use a rear hand, but it seems like a lot of the point fighters just bounce around waiting to throw a rear punch.
So one person in particular is very good at just constantly bouncing around. He rarely attacks, is just moving. I've tried to just stand and look at him and make him come to me and he just bounces around. It's almost funny to watch at that point. I've tried throwing hook kicks and round kicks going in the direction he's trying to circle, which helps a bit. I have won 2 of 2 matches against him (one person I'm thinking of in particular) but I don't feel confident in my approach.
Any techniques people use when fighting an opponent like this?
Thank you. |
Just so I am clear on the format of the tournaments you attend; as I don't live in the US: Are they WKF (World Karate Federation) Sanctioned Tournaments OR NASKA/ISKA Type Tournaments?
If it is a WKF Tournament:
If they wanting you to "Chase Them" then they can get penalized for failing to engage in combat; especially if you are attempting to engage.
Also the one that is just bounces around waiting for you to engage is most likely a counter-fighter, as such most likely expects you to come to them. the last tournament i entered in for kumite; i had 20 people in my division and 10 of them were that type of fighter.
If a NASKA/ISKA Tournament
Unfortunately I have little to no knowledge of these tournaments and their rules; as I haven't really competed in them. Also the ISKA Tournaments here where I live in Australia are in inconvenient places most of the time bar 1 round near where I train.
Either way in Both Tournament Types
Force them out of the ring and have them penalized. As it should get them to actively engage you more often. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16424
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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Like a game of chess; press and cut off escape.
Those who run or retreat will find themselves out of bounds, in a tournament setting, for the most part. Pressing them and cutting off any escape can work for your benefit. However, be careful of being drawn into a surprise attack.
TKD, especially TKD has that evil turn around roundhouse kick. That kick will draw you in, and if you're not paying attention...WHAM; kick to the sie of your head...POINT!! TKD has some effective, and oftentimes, sneaky kicks that will draw you into THEIR GAME, and if you're not aware of this, as I wasn't when I was a JBB, you'll get tagged and bagged at their will.
Yet, when I learned to press them without mercy, I'd stop their kicking game because their kicks weren't always able to continue; I jammed them as often as I could.
Those who like to dart here and there, and those that do that so much, they're game is over before it starts. Patterns are quickly revealed because patterns, to them, become a false security of comfort. Alas, as in chess, that surprise attack can be thwarted by properly studying the board, and by looking many moves ahead.
There's one thing that we all have in common...we're creatures of habits, and in that, we have a handful of techniques that we depend on, and we depend on them way too much. In chess, you have to have a very strong beginning, middle, and end game, and not just one or another, but all of them. The old adage...
Adapt or die!!
or...
Change is inevitable!!
Train for all possibilities, and if one can't, then...
Study your opponent
Study yourself
Make a plan
Carry that plan out
In Shindokan, we never backup, UNLESS it benefits us over our opponent. Backing up negates pressing an opponent without mercy. Let them dart about like a jumping bean because there's nothing more satisfying than defending oneself against an exhausted opponent.
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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Fighter(s) if we can call them one, lul, bore or simply frustrate their opponents. Chasing them is their game. It's what kids do playing a type of tag game. It is an immature strategy that is difficult for adult logic to comprehend easily.
In Wing Chun and Tai Chi this strategy is what is called not being able to (bridge the gap) imagine trying to punch a punching bag full of popcorn.
This defensive strategy of bouncing about is very much a boxing strategy. They need to be very mobile and on their toes but their balance is sacrificed for this rapid mobility. It's like trying to catch a human fly then you must be like a human iguana with a very fast stinger. Use snappy pullback techniques, that are too fast to counter. Above all unbalance them because this is their weakness.
You should move slowly to lul and bore them, fake slow punches and pretend to shorten your reach then (surprise sting) them with super fast speed with fast footwork, then again change mixing up your normal rhythm with broken rhythm; practice chaos on your opponent.
Position yourself by cutting off their space, they are using space to fly about in, lessen their space with your body placements. Otherwise you will be chasing them in open space; which was the initial problem. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16424
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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In short, if my opponent wants to play the chase game...fine...I'm patient, and I'll wait, and before long, my opponent will become impatient, and that begets mistakes that I can turn into my advantages.
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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A quote from Sun Tzu
EMPTINESS AND FULLNESS
Those who are first on the battlefield and await the opponents are at ease; those who are last on the battlefield and head into battle get worn out.
Therefore good warriors cause others to come to them, and do not go to others.
If you make opponents come to fight, then their force will always be empty. If you do not go to fight, then your force will always be full. This is the art of emptying others and filling yourself.
What causes opponents to come of their own accord is the prospect of gain. What discourages opponents from coming is the prospect of harm. |
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on the post.
