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MatsuShinshii
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 406
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Matsumura Shorin Ryu Rokudan 1979 to Present, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JR 137 - this was the year before I was born but as a Marine I absolutely agree with you. Some things are unforgivable.
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MatsuShinshii
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 406
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Matsumura Shorin Ryu Rokudan 1979 to Present, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sensei8,

I understand your/your organization's position against this man and it sounds like it is more than warranted.

To be clear... within SKKA he has been striped of Sokeship and of his Judan. I get this and understand this completely. However, being of a traditional old school back ground I have to ask, How is it that he has no claim to SKKA?

If you started over under a new name and would not recognize him as your Soke, I can totally understand this. My Shinshii started his own organization and re-named it to avoid legal issues. However if Soke named it and passed it down to Dai-Soke and he passed it down to San Dai-Soke, then isn't the name proprietary to him? Does he not have all rights to the name and it's branding (Patches, structure, etc)?

I mean no disrespect by asking this but coming from my back ground it is inconceivable how an organization can outlaw it's Soke and take the name and branding away from him, much less take away his Sokeship.

So I guess this leads to another question; If he started teaching and building up his own organization as Soke and a Judan, can he use the SKKA name and it's branding since Dai-Soke passed it directly to him?

I know I'm wearing you out but I must ask one last question. You said only one Menkyo Kaiden was awarded and that was directly to your Soke. This puzzled me until I really thought about it. But to confirm my thoughts I must ask; did your Soke start learning another art and was the total transmission given to him, thus allowing him to form his own art?

Why was a Menkyo Kaiden never passed on to Dai-Soke as this is tradition to pass on successorship to the next in line? This is not completely out of the norm but is in no way typical. However Hohan Soken never passed a Menkyo Kaiden down so I know this happens. However the Japanese government, as I understand it, named Kise the successor after Hohan Shinshii died. Did the Regents and Hierarchy name Dai-Soke the successor without the means of a Menkyo-Kaiden?

Sorry for all of the questions but I am truly interested in how these things came about. It is definitely not something I have experienced nor have heard of. Truly a unique scenario.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 12467
Location: Owasso, OK
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that some things are unforgivable, and when it comes to Iwao, I've a hard time forgiving his actions. However, I've agreed to soften my hard stance against him for the sake of forgiveness alone...so I'm trying to do just that.

As Danielle mentioned, my stipulations are quite binding, and imho, quite unforgiving across the board. That's why I've made the stipulations as impossible for him as I can, and this is because forgiveness, with me, doesn't come that easy.

I hate thieves and liars, so much so, that I don't want to be near them, and Iwao has done both!!

Our newly elected Higher Hierarchy officers might not have been in the room whenever all of this was happening, but they most assuredly felt the sting being part of the Student Body.

My insight to those many close door sessions, both before and after, will hopefully fill in some of the blanks for them, as well of the almost 2 volumes of transcripts surrounding these events.



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JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 1407
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
Sensei8,

I understand your/your organization's position against this man and it sounds like it is more than warranted.

To be clear... within SKKA he has been striped of Sokeship and of his Judan. I get this and understand this completely. However, being of a traditional old school back ground I have to ask, How is it that he has no claim to SKKA?

If you started over under a new name and would not recognize him as your Soke, I can totally understand this. My Shinshii started his own organization and re-named it to avoid legal issues. However if Soke named it and passed it down to Dai-Soke and he passed it down to San Dai-Soke, then isn't the name proprietary to him? Does he not have all rights to the name and it's branding (Patches, structure, etc)?

I mean no disrespect by asking this but coming from my back ground it is inconceivable how an organization can outlaw it's Soke and take the name and branding away from him, much less take away his Sokeship.

So I guess this leads to another question; If he started teaching and building up his own organization as Soke and a Judan, can he use the SKKA name and it's branding since Dai-Soke passed it directly to him?

I know I'm wearing you out but I must ask one last question. You said only one Menkyo Kaiden was awarded and that was directly to your Soke. This puzzled me until I really thought about it. But to confirm my thoughts I must ask; did your Soke start learning another art and was the total transmission given to him, thus allowing him to form his own art?

Why was a Menkyo Kaiden never passed on to Dai-Soke as this is tradition to pass on successorship to the next in line? This is not completely out of the norm but is in no way typical. However Hohan Soken never passed a Menkyo Kaiden down so I know this happens. However the Japanese government, as I understand it, named Kise the successor after Hohan Shinshii died. Did the Regents and Hierarchy name Dai-Soke the successor without the means of a Menkyo-Kaiden?

Sorry for all of the questions but I am truly interested in how these things came about. It is definitely not something I have experienced nor have heard of. Truly a unique scenario.


Not to answer for sensei8, but I must say...

Menkyo Kaiden was awarded to Dai-Soke from Soke. Menkyo Kaiden was not awarded from Dai-Soke to San Dai-Soke.

How can San Dai-Soke be stripped of any ownership of SKKA/Shindokan? From what I'm interpreting (and it could be quite wrong), he abandoned it when he closed the honbu and was not to be found.




Sensei8 - if these guys want to further their knowledge and the former San Dai-Soke has the knowledge they're after, tell them to encourage the former San Dai-Soke to start his own dojo/organization, and encourage anyone who's interested to resign and become his students. I get wanting to further the knowledge, but at the expense of the art and organization itself? People who forget history are destined to be reminded the hard way.

Harsh, yes. But hey, he almost ruined the organization single handedly once. Brining him back in any capacity is inviting him to have a second chance at it. Once he's back, there's no telling how manipulative he'll get. Would divide and conquer be completely out of the realm of possibility? By-Laws can be changed if the right puppets are in place. Not that I think they're puppets by any means, but him coming in could easily spread his cancer. People get manipulated all the time, and all too often it's too late when they finally realize it.

Sorry, I know I'm being blunt. I'm just running out of ways to say it more succinctly. I commend you for trying to be fair, rational, forgiving, etc. You're a better person than I. I know, what I've posted is worst case scenario. Sorry to be all doom and gloom.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 12467
Location: Owasso, OK
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
Sensei8,

I understand your/your organization's position against this man and it sounds like it is more than warranted.

Thank you for saying that!

MatsuShinshii wrote:
To be clear... within SKKA he has been striped of Sokeship and of his Judan. I get this and understand this completely. However, being of a traditional old school back ground I have to ask, How is it that he has no claim to SKKA?

First off, Soke never wanted to follow any traditional values the same as of any Governing Body and the like in Okinawa; not then, not now, and not ever. If his ways seem strange, and not how it's normally done, than his desires have been achieved.

MatsuShinshii wrote:
If you started over under a new name and would not recognize him as your Soke, I can totally understand this. My Shinshii started his own organization and re-named it to avoid legal issues. However if Soke named it and passed it down to Dai-Soke and he passed it down to San Dai-Soke, then isn't the name proprietary to him? Does he not have all rights to the name and it's branding (Patches, structure, etc)?

According to our Legal Team, he gave up his total and complete ownership over the SKKA/Hombu whenever he closed those entities and vanished!!

MatsuShinshii wrote:
I mean no disrespect by asking this but coming from my back ground it is inconceivable how an organization can outlaw it's Soke and take the name and branding away from him, much less take away his Sokeship.

Again, he gave up his ownership over the SKKA/Hombu whenever he closed those entities and vanished!! While our steps might've been small to protect us nowadays, but they're legally binding and protected.


MatsuShinshii wrote:
So I guess this leads to another question; If he started teaching and building up his own organization as Soke and a Judan, can he use the SKKA name and it's branding since Dai-Soke passed it directly to him?

Nope!! Not without our extensive consent and authorization!!


MatsuShinshii wrote:
I know I'm wearing you out but I must ask one last question. You said only one Menkyo Kaiden was awarded and that was directly to your Soke. This puzzled me until I really thought about it. But to confirm my thoughts I must ask; did your Soke start learning another art and was the total transmission given to him, thus allowing him to form his own art?

Soke has never had a Menkyo Kaiden bestowed upon him by any of his teachers. However, Dai-Soke has had a Menkyo Kaiden bestowed upon him by his teacher...Soke!! Dai-Soke IS the only one in our history to have ever had a Menkyo Kaiden bestowed upon them.

And no, you're not wearing me out at all!!

MatsuShinshii wrote:
Why was a Menkyo Kaiden never passed on to Dai-Soke as this is tradition to pass on successorship to the next in line? This is not completely out of the norm but is in no way typical. However Hohan Soken never passed a Menkyo Kaiden down so I know this happens. However the Japanese government, as I understand it, named Kise the successor after Hohan Shinshii died. Did the Regents and Hierarchy name Dai-Soke the successor without the means of a Menkyo-Kaiden?

Dai-Soke passed away before he had officially awarded a Menkyo Kaiden to San Dai-Soke, IF, that was Dai-Soke's intent from the very start.

NO!! Soke, while he was retired from teaching, named Dai-Soke the successor!!

MatsuShinshii wrote:
Sorry for all of the questions but I am truly interested in how these things came about. It is definitely not something I have experienced nor have heard of. Truly a unique scenario.

Nothing to apologize for; it's perfectly alright.



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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 26698
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob, this is quite the stir-up! How did Iwoa's name get brought back into this? Did he return, and request to be reinstated in some fashion? Or has the Higher Hierarchy decided to seek him out and make this request? I was under the impression that he returned to Okinawa and started teaching his Shindokan there. Am I missing something here?

I guess what I'd like to know is has Iwoa already been approached, and has he conditionally accepted the offer to be brought back into the fold?

Bob, I understand how this must make you feel, after all that you went through previously. I know you have done your very best to protect Shindokan and the SKKA, so it makes sense that this whole situation is a bit curious to you. I don't blame you one bit. Please, let me fill in these blanks for me here if you can.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 12467
Location: Owasso, OK
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
Bob, this is quite the stir-up! How did Iwoa's name get brought back into this? Did he return, and request to be reinstated in some fashion? Or has the Higher Hierarchy decided to seek him out and make this request? I was under the impression that he returned to Okinawa and started teaching his Shindokan there. Am I missing something here?

I guess what I'd like to know is has Iwoa already been approached, and has he conditionally accepted the offer to be brought back into the fold?

Bob, I understand how this must make you feel, after all that you went through previously. I know you have done your very best to protect Shindokan and the SKKA, so it makes sense that this whole situation is a bit curious to you. I don't blame you one bit. Please, let me fill in these blanks for me here if you can.

I've not, as of yet, ascertained whom approached whom first...Iwao or the Higher Hierarchy, but I will, one way or another.

No, he's not returned...yet...but he's trying to. Yes, he wants to return, although he's not asking to return in his past glory. He can't return as Judan and he can't return as San Dai-Soke. First off, we no longer award Judan!! We no longer use Soke types!! From me, he'll be lucky to get a glass of water!!

Well, whether if he moved to Okinawa or not, is of no concern. Years ago, we sent a small team to look for him in Okinawa, but we never located him. Last we found out was that he was in Hayward, CA. This is a place where he went to college once back some time ago.

As of now, he's not accepted or refused my stipulations. Just as soon as he does or doesn't, especially if he accepts, I'll have a serious conversation with him as to what his expectations from us WILL BE!!

I'm not quite sure what I feel right now!! Perhaps angry at him...still...makes my blood boil!! Maybe I should just let him come back just so I can keep an eye on him...you know...keep your friends close, but keep your enemies even closer.




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The Pred
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 300

Styles: Goju Ryu

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I know you've mentioned that the buck stops with you since you're the Kaicho.Now I know the Kancho is the CI of the system. If you lived nearby or some other person did, would the Kaicho be the CI? Also did anything come about of term limits for the Kaicho position?

So does the person who got elected to CI feel they aren't worthy, hence he or she willing to give it up?
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 12467
Location: Owasso, OK
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Pred wrote:
So I know you've mentioned that the buck stops with you since you're the Kaicho.Now I know the Kancho is the CI of the system. If you lived nearby or some other person did, would the Kaicho be the CI? Also did anything come about of term limits for the Kaicho position?

So does the person who got elected to CI feel they aren't worthy, hence he or she willing to give it up?

The Kancho of the SKKA is not the CI of the system, but only the Vice-President of the SKKA. Kancho's plate is way to full to deal with being the CI. Especially when I'm more out of house than in house.

No, if I lived locally to the Hombu, nowadays, I'd not be the CI of the SKKA because, as it stands, my plate would be way to full for me to equally give both of these positions the respect and attention they both deserve.

Well, the Term Limits, for now, have been tabled until a time yet to still be make in the future. This is due to the tragedy of July 2016!! This is both for respect to them, as well as their families!!

Our current CI, is the Interim CI, as we've not elected a new CI, as of yet. If Iwao accepts my stipulations, he'll be elected as the CI. It is my understanding that all of the Higher Hierarchy will vote for him to be the CI of the SKKA. If Iwao refuses my stipulations, then we'll search for, and then vote for a CI of the SKKA.

Our Interim CI is more than qualified to be the SKKA's CI, and feels worthy, however, our Interim CI is very busy being Vice-President of a fortune 500 company. As of now, he's being allowed to be our Interim CI on a full time basis, and we've until the end of February to find, and secure, a permanent CI. So, he feels both honored and worthy, however, had he felt unworthy to hold the CI post, we'd not stop him from abdicating, as no one is ever forced to hold any elected position of any degree.





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MatsuShinshii
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 406
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Matsumura Shorin Ryu Rokudan 1979 to Present, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After going back and reading quite a few of your posts I now understand your feelings towards this man. I have to say you are justified in your position.

I must say though that if this man has the knowledge that you say he does and he were to be selected as the Hombu CI, without the Judan grading and Soke position, I actually see this as a great benefit to your organization. Since it seems that neither you nor your Kancho has the time, this seems like a very logical fit.

My question would be, are you going to have to deal with him in that capacity and would this effect you personally? Based on your comments, besides giving him a glass of water, it sounds like you wouldn't use that same glass of water to put him out if he was on fire. Not that I blame you based on your previous posts.
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