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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 12126
Location: Houston, TX and/or Van Nuys, CA
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once on the floor, I don't have male and/or female students, I only have students...period!!

I don't worry about putting females with females or males with males, and this is because I'm there to teach my students the most effective way(s) for them to defend themselves. A drill is a drill, and so on and so forth!!

Students, both male and female, if given the chance to "pick a partner" will pick someone of the same gender, and often times, it's the same partner over and over, and this, to me, is quite unrealistic. I'll constantly break up partner picks, and you can see it on the students face whenever I do that...it makes them uncomfortable. I don't have the time to make your training comfortable...that too, is unrealistic...we're there to train in the MA!!




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JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 1290
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seido Juku used to have a women's group (I don't know what it was technically called). Tadashi Nakamura wanted to change the culture of karate being male dominated. He started a group of his senior most women to assess and address the issues that women faced in the organization. After several years the group was no longer necessary because they succeeded - Seido karate is nearly 50/50 male/female. The group becoming obsolete was a great source of pride for those women and the organization. No idea what specific issues were addressed nor changes were made, as this was before my time. There are many dojos run by high ranking females.

As far a our dojo is concerned...

I don't see any issues with LGBT. Due to our building, I don't see any gender identity issues. We don't have showers, we have small male and female changing rooms which are about the size of large walk in closets. We have a single bathroom in which anyone is allowed to use to get changed if they wish. We line up by rank, initially pair off with the senior next in line, and rotate down the line. I don't think I've ever seen anyone given a choice as to who they're working with. On the odd occasion we don't pair off this way, my CI will pair us up.

We've got people with diverse backgrounds (I don't think we have anyone with gender identity/transition), and everyone is treated as they should be - human beings. We've got an atmosphere where everyone is treated like family. Most of the adults are mid 30-mid 40s, so I think that definitely sets a tone for the maturity level.

How are we excluding people? No idea. You don't know what you don't know. If someone asked my CI to make reasonable accommodations, I have no doubt he would if it was possible.
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DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 5607
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Once on the floor, I don't have male and/or female students, I only have students...period!!

I don't worry about putting females with females or males with males, and this is because I'm there to teach my students the most effective way(s) for them to defend themselves. A drill is a drill, and so on and so forth!!

Students, both male and female, if given the chance to "pick a partner" will pick someone of the same gender, and often times, it's the same partner over and over, and this, to me, is quite unrealistic. I'll constantly break up partner picks, and you can see it on the students face whenever I do that...it makes them uncomfortable. I don't have the time to make your training comfortable...that too, is unrealistic...we're there to train in the MA!!




Whilst it is commendable that you treat all students equal, male and female, I think it is still really important to acknowledge that males and females have different experiences in MA. You have differences in physiology which impact ability and how well a student might or might not be able to do something. This is especially important for young adults and teens who are just discovering themselves and are going through complex physical changes. To not recognise gender is to dismiss what these kids are going through.

Practically I think for partner work it is good to distinguish between genders. Most definitely for some partner stretches it can be very uncomfortable for some students to be partnered with the opposite gender. Its also beneficial to sometimes deliberately partner male and female together such as in any self defense work so the females feel what it is like to be attacked by a stronger opponent.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 12126
Location: Houston, TX and/or Van Nuys, CA
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
Once on the floor, I don't have male and/or female students, I only have students...period!!

I don't worry about putting females with females or males with males, and this is because I'm there to teach my students the most effective way(s) for them to defend themselves. A drill is a drill, and so on and so forth!!

Students, both male and female, if given the chance to "pick a partner" will pick someone of the same gender, and often times, it's the same partner over and over, and this, to me, is quite unrealistic. I'll constantly break up partner picks, and you can see it on the students face whenever I do that...it makes them uncomfortable. I don't have the time to make your training comfortable...that too, is unrealistic...we're there to train in the MA!!




Whilst it is commendable that you treat all students equal, male and female, I think it is still really important to acknowledge that males and females have different experiences in MA. You have differences in physiology which impact ability and how well a student might or might not be able to do something. This is especially important for young adults and teens who are just discovering themselves and are going through complex physical changes. To not recognise gender is to dismiss what these kids are going through.

Practically I think for partner work it is good to distinguish between genders. Most definitely for some partner stretches it can be very uncomfortable for some students to be partnered with the opposite gender. Its also beneficial to sometimes deliberately partner male and female together such as in any self defense work so the females feel what it is like to be attacked by a stronger opponent.

I understand and respect your points, it's just not my way!!

My way is to teach them how to defend themselves, first and foremost.

I've no time and/or inclination to be politically correct on the floor. That might come across that I'm insensitive across the board as to the plight of all ages as to their personal physicality, and that's the furthest thing from the truth!!



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sarah
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 19 Jan 2016
Posts: 18
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
Whilst it is commendable that you treat all students equal, male and female, I think it is still really important to acknowledge that males and females have different experiences in MA. You have differences in physiology which impact ability and how well a student might or might not be able to do something. This is especially important for young adults and teens who are just discovering themselves and are going through complex physical changes. To not recognise gender is to dismiss what these kids are going through.

Practically I think for partner work it is good to distinguish between genders. Most definitely for some partner stretches it can be very uncomfortable for some students to be partnered with the opposite gender. Its also beneficial to sometimes deliberately partner male and female together such as in any self defense work so the females feel what it is like to be attacked by a stronger opponent.


I don't see such differences as you describe, and normally in class I would not think to separate by gender. If you assume that women are weak, then I think there is a high chance you just end up reinforcing that.

In the couple of weeks before a competition, I mostly (but not always) separate the men for full-contact sparring, because they suddenly get adrenaline surges and can become very powerful, and in competition they will only fight other men. For students beginning to learn partner stretching for the first or second time, I agree that some care is taken in who to partner them with, as it can be a new experience for them to get used to.
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DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 5607
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sarah wrote:
DWx wrote:
Whilst it is commendable that you treat all students equal, male and female, I think it is still really important to acknowledge that males and females have different experiences in MA. You have differences in physiology which impact ability and how well a student might or might not be able to do something. This is especially important for young adults and teens who are just discovering themselves and are going through complex physical changes. To not recognise gender is to dismiss what these kids are going through.

Practically I think for partner work it is good to distinguish between genders. Most definitely for some partner stretches it can be very uncomfortable for some students to be partnered with the opposite gender. Its also beneficial to sometimes deliberately partner male and female together such as in any self defense work so the females feel what it is like to be attacked by a stronger opponent.


I don't see such differences as you describe, and normally in class I would not think to separate by gender. If you assume that women are weak, then I think there is a high chance you just end up reinforcing that.

In the couple of weeks before a competition, I mostly (but not always) separate the men for full-contact sparring, because they suddenly get adrenaline surges and can become very powerful, and in competition they will only fight other men. For students beginning to learn partner stretching for the first or second time, I agree that some care is taken in who to partner them with, as it can be a new experience for them to get used to.

With all due respect I disagree. There are physical differences which sometimes necessitate differences in training. Otherwise why do you separate your male students for full-contact before a tournament? I'm not saying that you have to separate genders for every class or exercise but it should be a consideration depending on what you are doing. At the end of the day, its about safeguarding and creating an environment that your students are comfortable in but more importantly, safe in.

I don't assume women are weak but I do assume most women are weaker than most men. There are plenty of studies to back this up and this is why we have different competitions for male and female athletes in virtually all sports. Lower body strength is generally comparable between genders but upper body strength differs greatly with most studies suggesting females have 50 - 60% of the strength of males. The flip side to this is that women generally have better flexibility, different hip structure (easier kicks) and their endurance is also generally better, but testosterone = muscle mass and power.

What does this mean for training? For the most part all students can do the same exercises. But as you said in your post, in sparring or other partner work there are instances where you might want to separate the female students off or at least only pair up the stronger individuals with male partners. Fitness requirements might also be altered slightly as it is unreasonable for females to compete on strength or performance requirements.

I also think it's important to consider the hormonal changes teens and young adults go through as this is different between male and female students. If you teach or coach teens you'll appreciate that puberty hits males and females at different points and effects their performance in different ways. At the other end of the spectrum the menopause can hit some women hard and have a detrimental effect on physical performance. Females also have to contend with cyclical hormonal and metabolic changes meaning their performance peaks and troughs.
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sarah
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 19 Jan 2016
Posts: 18
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
There are physical differences which sometimes necessitate differences in training. Otherwise why do you separate your male students for full-contact before a tournament?


The major factor here is body weight: competitions are separated into weight categories for a reason, and it is good to train with people of a similar body weight so you can anticipate the sort of contact you will receive in competition. Secondarily, I do witness a slight change in the men right before a competition, but it isn't about physicality, it is about a mental approach that I think is a bit different, broadly speaking, to the women's preparation.

How does your assumption of physical difference play out practically speaking? For instance, would you ask a large man, an older woman, a teenage girl and a small skinny child to do the same number of push ups or kicks?
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DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 5607
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sarah wrote:
DWx wrote:
There are physical differences which sometimes necessitate differences in training. Otherwise why do you separate your male students for full-contact before a tournament?


The major factor here is body weight: competitions are separated into weight categories for a reason, and it is good to train with people of a similar body weight so you can anticipate the sort of contact you will receive in competition. Secondarily, I do witness a slight change in the men right before a competition, but it isn't about physicality, it is about a mental approach that I think is a bit different, broadly speaking, to the women's preparation.

How does your assumption of physical difference play out practically speaking? For instance, would you ask a large man, an older woman, a teenage girl and a small skinny child to do the same number of push ups or kicks?

Weight plays a part yes, and I agree that before a competition it is important to train with similar weights. However there are plenty of studies comparing physical ability between male and female which conclude males have greater strength so it's not really an assumption.

Looking at this study on grip strength for example, which in of itself is a decent indicator of overall upper and lower strength in adults, the conclusion is that even in highly training athletes which require good grip like Judoka and handball players, their grip strength is lower than the average man.

Quote:
Mean maximal hand-grip strength showed the expected clear difference between men (541 N) and women (329 N). Less expected was the gender related distribution of hand-grip strength: 90% of females produced less force than 95% of males. Though female athletes were significantly stronger (444 N) than their untrained female counterparts, this value corresponded to only the 25th percentile of the male subjects...

The results of female national elite athletes even indicate that the strength level attainable by extremely high training will rarely surpass the 50th percentile of untrained or not specifically trained men.


Forgetting the studies if you compare performances between men and women at the Olympics, men are categorically faster and stronger.

Sarah wrote:
How does your assumption of physical difference play out practically speaking? For instance, would you ask a large man, an older woman, a teenage girl and a small skinny child to do the same number of push ups or kicks?


In short, no I don't expect them to do the same.

I coach a competition team and I don't, for example, expect a female to complete 20 push ups as fast as the male competitors complete them. Despite being high level athletes the females will run a mile slower and score lower on average in fitness tests like the bleep test or McCloy test.

Our juniors, seniors and over 40's also have different expectations especially when it comes to fitness testing and I don't ask them to perform to the same standards.

It's not a requirement (yet) but if we also look at strength requirements scaled for weight and age, female 1 rep max on all lifts are lower: http://strengthlevel.com/strength-standards
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Bulltahr
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 331
Location: NEW ZEALAND
Styles: Shotokan, Seido Juku

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys might have upper body strength, but judging by the amount of women that kick me in the head while sparring, they have it when it comes to flexibility!!!!
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