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armanox
Blue Belt
Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 326
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Styles: Shorin Ryu, Hapkido, Aikido
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 Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
I've done forms in TKD for a lot of years that didn't have any applications for them. The ATA forms weren't designed with applications in mind like those seen from Karate kata. I've seen some application ideas for the ITF forms I do now, and have seen ideas for the Tae Guek and Pal Gwe forms. But these are rather recent innovations.
My concern with the whole thing is, why should I have to learn a form, then learn its applications, to learn self-defense? I'm a big proponent of getting into applications work as early as possible in training. |
Different ideas about how training should go I guess. Some of our cousin schools overseas (from what I've heard) just do kata and conditioning until shodan, after which point the focus changes to bunkai and oyo. I've heard that Katsuya Miyahira didn't teach sparring until Yondan. Perhaps they felt that the students needed a certain level of physical and mental training first. Perhaps they didn't want to just give away their "secrets" to anyone and you have to earn their trust first. Just different philosophies. (Then again, the idea that shodan is a high rank is more a western thing in my experience too. The whole "Now you're ready to start training" at shodan saying means a whole different thing in some schools).
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"Karate is NOT about the colour of belt you wear it is about the person you become;...to be a good blackbelt is to be humble and respectful amongst other things." -Dobbersky |
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DaveB
Orange Belt
Joined: 13 Jul 2014
Posts: 142
Location: London
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
I've done forms in TKD for a lot of years that didn't have any applications for them. The ATA forms weren't designed with applications in mind like those seen from Karate kata. I've seen some application ideas for the ITF forms I do now, and have seen ideas for the Tae Guek and Pal Gwe forms. But these are rather recent innovations.
My concern with the whole thing is, why should I have to learn a form, then learn its applications, to learn self-defense? I'm a big proponent of getting into applications work as early as possible in training. |
Do you think you can walk into a fencing class and just start fighting? Or be a soldier by picking up a gun?
Because it doesn't take a.lot of training to mimic a movement, doesn't mean that the mimic has the strength to be effective, the speed to land the attack, the coordination to respond in any situation or that the information is sufficiently ingrained into their brain that it.doesn't fall away when fear and adrenaline smack him upside the head.
That's why part of the training in traditional ma is technically specific aerobic drills that you repeat over and over again until you can't loose them and when you are scared and caught by surprise you fall back on them until your brain re-engages. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| DaveB wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
I've done forms in TKD for a lot of years that didn't have any applications for them. The ATA forms weren't designed with applications in mind like those seen from Karate kata. I've seen some application ideas for the ITF forms I do now, and have seen ideas for the Tae Guek and Pal Gwe forms. But these are rather recent innovations.
My concern with the whole thing is, why should I have to learn a form, then learn its applications, to learn self-defense? I'm a big proponent of getting into applications work as early as possible in training. |
Do you think you can walk into a fencing class and just start fighting? Or be a soldier by picking up a gun?
Because it doesn't take a.lot of training to mimic a movement, doesn't mean that the mimic has the strength to be effective, the speed to land the attack, the coordination to respond in any situation or that the information is sufficiently ingrained into their brain that it.doesn't fall away when fear and adrenaline smack him upside the head.
That's why part of the training in traditional ma is technically specific aerobic drills that you repeat over and over again until you can't loose them and when you are scared and caught by surprise you fall back on them until your brain re-engages. |
I see the analogies you are trying to make, but I don't think they always match up.
If I walk into a fencing class, I won't be winning any fencing competitions any time soon. But, I imagine I would start learning some moves and some applications on that day.
As for the motor skill development, I think its important to do both the "aerobic drilling" as well as seeing and working applications for the techniques. Both can be done, and it can be productive.
In my Krav and GRACIE DT courses, we started learning application right away. It can be done in Karate and TKD just like it can be done in BJJ or DT settings. I think it has more to do with instructors not wanting to break from the traditional mold of teaching.
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Luther unleashed
Brown Belt
Joined: 30 Jan 2014
Posts: 676
Location: Phoenix
Styles: A few!
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| Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:19 am Post subject: |
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Yes, taekwondo is not really a martial art that uses application much. In Tang Soo Do we use application, because the forms come from shotokan and shotokan is heavy into applications. If you were to research applications of TSD however they are not nearly as plentiful, so most applications would be found from shotokan specifically. There are SOME forms depending on the lineage of TSD like yuk ro, that are not used in shotokan, but they are higher level forms past black belt. Up to black belt is almost always shotokan style forms, so applications are plentiful thanks to the grandfather art of shotokan.
I enjoy application probably for then anything sometimes. There are some really great ones out there. You can easily determine your own and this is an exercise I do in adult classes, developing your own. It's fun and helps students to develop the way of thinking. Noting however that if you do not practice application, kata is still very useful in that you are training stances, stepping, posture and so on.
To the poster, I would not get frustrated. A person on this forum said something and I repeat it often. This forum is a great place to get ideas and use them in training and I have done it myself. Anyways, (can't remember who) he said "application should be reserved for good karate"! I really like that. I think it's ok to dabble and get the mind geared for it but the karate should be good first. In this sense they should start to be learned more after black belt because if you think about it, the basics are typically mastered by the time you achieve black belt. You can always research application on your own, but remember, work hard to make your forms/hyung/kata better then ever first, then your applications will be solid!
Good luck!
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Hustle and hard work are a substitute for talent! |
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mushybees
Orange Belt
Joined: 16 Nov 2014
Posts: 199
Location: UK
Styles: Wado ryu
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| Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:43 am Post subject: |
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In our club we look at bunkai from day 1 but bunkai isn't part of the syllabus or gradings.
We're shown applications and how the body mechanics we've learned in the kata makes the techniques effective. We're also encouraged to use those body mechanics and kata forms and apply them in ways that aren't predetermined.
I've surprised myself a few times by finding a way out of a grab or thinking of a takedown on the fly off the back of kata muscle memory. Very satisfying. |
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1902
Styles: Shorin ryu
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| Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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Breaking down kata and practising individual techniques in isolation(bunkai) is an essential exercise meant to be done at the same time as kata. It is the first an most important step to effective kata. Kata is a lifeless and meaningless pantomime if one does not have an idea of exactly what one is doing.
The better the techniques, their mechanics and purpose are understood, the better one will be able to execute them. Correct techniques and basic application principles ought to be practised from the very beginning of training. Either as soon as a kata's pattern is learned or preferably after each part of a kata is taught. Both the kata and its basic application(oyo bunkai) ought to be drilled repeatedly in sequence as well as in isolation. |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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I think a lot of people have misconceptions about kata, bunkai and training in the early days of karate in Okinawa. Kata wasn't taught from day one in some systems. Bunkai wasn't taught until later on. My source:
http://www.hgweb.nl/isshinryu/history/yagi.htm
According to Meitoku Yagi, who was given Chojun Miyagi's (founder of Goju Ryu) belt and gi by the Miyagi family, Miyagi didn't teach the first kata - Sanchin until about 3-5 years after they started training. And Sanchin was more of a conditioning kata than a bunkai-type kata. Furthermore...
"In the old days Master Miyagi often taught in two ways. One, the beginners way, was with no understanding of what they were learning. And last, for the advanced student, was a complete understanding of what they had learned. He would very rarely give insights or meaning to the kata that he taught until the student showed mastery of the form through hard and consistent training."
I wonder what criteria Miyagi had to determine when a student became an "advanced student." Something tells me he wouldn't consider today's shodans "advanced students."
Perhaps Miyagi was the exception in old-school Okinawan karate and not the norm. Perhaps not. I'm not saying his approach was the best approach or not, just saying what I've read. Of course, if it's on the internet, it has to be true.  |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| JR 137 wrote: |
I think a lot of people have misconceptions about kata, bunkai and training in the early days of karate in Okinawa. Kata wasn't taught from day one in some systems. Bunkai wasn't taught until later on. My source:
http://www.hgweb.nl/isshinryu/history/yagi.htm
According to Meitoku Yagi, who was given Chojun Miyagi's (founder of Goju Ryu) belt and gi by the Miyagi family, Miyagi didn't teach the first kata - Sanchin until about 3-5 years after they started training. And Sanchin was more of a conditioning kata than a bunkai-type kata. Furthermore...
"In the old days Master Miyagi often taught in two ways. One, the beginners way, was with no understanding of what they were learning. And last, for the advanced student, was a complete understanding of what they had learned. He would very rarely give insights or meaning to the kata that he taught until the student showed mastery of the form through hard and consistent training."
I wonder what criteria Miyagi had to determine when a student became an "advanced student." Something tells me he wouldn't consider today's shodans "advanced students."
Perhaps Miyagi was the exception in old-school Okinawan karate and not the norm. Perhaps not. I'm not saying his approach was the best approach or not, just saying what I've read. Of course, if it's on the internet, it has to be true. |
Solid post!!
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Kusotare
Purple Belt
Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 574
Styles: Traditional Japanese Karate, Koryu Bujutsu (Jujutsu, Iaido and Kenjutsu)
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| DaveB wrote: |
Personally I feel it is better to teach movement and coordination before teaching and drilling fighting methods. There are a lot of people who have no body awareness and only experienced martial artists will have all the movement skills required to make effective use of the art.
Learning to channel your whole body into all your movements fluidly, quickly, powerfully and with complete adaptability is the most difficult part of martial arts and the longest to learn. Therefore we should start it before everything else.
I feel all MA skills should be trained intensively to achieve a good level before moving on and incorporating new skills. |
This is very much the Wado Karate approach. I wrote a small piece on this a while back on another forum...
The way Wado is designed to be taught is similar to that of a feudal koryu system rather than an Okinawan karate. Even the way the Kanji for Kata is written is different - and that's no mistake. In Wado we have Kata which is written as 形 (Gyo) instead of 型 (Kei) used in the Okinawan experience.
In nutshell "形 (Gyo)" means shape, form or mould. Whereas "型 (Kei)" means template or prototype.
It's difficult to get your head around, but Wado kata (gyo) is about practicing the form in order to train the body as a solo exercise, as opposed to Okinawan Kata (kei) which is more concerned with developing the techniques found within the kata (usually this takes the form of Bunkai with an opponent, so the techniques can be realised).
As a result, most Wado groups don't typically tend to utilise the process of "Bunkai" as part of their kata study, but instead use the body strengthening and conditioning developed as a result of practicing solo kata and then apply this to the various paired kata found within the Wado-ryu.
Typically, most students aren't ready to be exposed to paired kata like kihon kumite, kumite gata and idori etc., until they have been studying for 2-3 years and then it takes many years after that before you start to understand how the paired kata work.
Just thought I'd share.
K.
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Usque ad mortem bibendum! |
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Luther unleashed
Brown Belt
Joined: 30 Jan 2014
Posts: 676
Location: Phoenix
Styles: A few!
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Spartacus Maximus wrote: |
Breaking down kata and practising individual techniques in isolation(bunkai) is an essential exercise meant to be done at the same time as kata. It is the first an most important step to effective kata. Kata is a lifeless and meaningless pantomime if one does not have an idea of exactly what one is doing.
The better the techniques, their mechanics and purpose are understood, the better one will be able to execute them. Correct techniques and basic application principles ought to be practised from the very beginning of training. Either as soon as a kata's pattern is learned or preferably after each part of a kata is taught. Both the kata and its basic application(oyo bunkai) ought to be drilled repeatedly in sequence as well as in isolation. |
I agree, forms seem lifeless without application BUT trying to teach application to students who can't perform the movements well is not very effective. I agree with you and wish I could do more application at times but it's very difficult to teach an application when the student is getting mixed up and turning the wrong way.
"Application should be reserved for good karate"!!! Forum unknown
Forms can be great for many other things then fighting though. When practitioners are older and can't do some of the kicks and so on, forms are a great tool to condition and stay in shape keeping the martial artist strong and steady.
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Hustle and hard work are a substitute for talent! |
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on the post.
