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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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 Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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I believe that kata is only lifeless if the practitioner only performs said kata, and not execute said kata with all of their heart, mind, and soul. Performances are not part of kata being the soul of Karate.
Imho!
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Safroot
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 22 Dec 2013
Posts: 911
Location: Sydney, Australia
Styles: Kyokushin
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Being taught Kata...But not the Bunkai? |
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| Shotokannon wrote: |
if we're not taught the application of such techniques then what's the point in doing them?
has anyone else ever experienced this at A Dojo before? |
I had the same problem & that's why I used to hate kata !
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"The Martial Arts begin with a point and end in a circle."
Sosai Mas Oyama founder of Kyokushin Karate. |
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Safroot
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 22 Dec 2013
Posts: 911
Location: Sydney, Australia
Styles: Kyokushin
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Spartacus Maximus wrote: |
| Teaching kata without anything more than a general explanation is unfortunately the norm in the majority of dojo |
why is that the normal in the majority of dojos ? it makes life harder for beginners like myself 
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"The Martial Arts begin with a point and end in a circle."
Sosai Mas Oyama founder of Kyokushin Karate. |
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1902
Styles: Shorin ryu
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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The answer to that is not a simple one. There are in fact many reasons why in most karate dojo, regardless of style, do not spend adequate time on learning and training the applications of kata. One of the many reasons is that the instructor simply does not know. Most likely because it was never taught by whoever taught that instructor.
Another reason is that the instructor was never taught how to use kata effectively as a training exercise the way it is meant to be. This is why in most dojo, kata training involves repeating a string of techniques like some sort of dance choreography. Every step and every move in a kata has a purpose and a function. |
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Safroot
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 22 Dec 2013
Posts: 911
Location: Sydney, Australia
Styles: Kyokushin
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Spartacus Maximus wrote: |
The answer to that is not a simple one. There are in fact many reasons why in most karate dojo, regardless of style, do not spend adequate time on learning and training the applications of kata. One of the many reasons is that the instructor simply does not know. Most likely because it was never taught by whoever taught that instructor.
Another reason is that the instructor was never taught how to use kata effectively as a training exercise the way it is meant to be. This is why in most dojo, kata training involves repeating a string of techniques like some sort of dance choreography. Every step and every move in a kata has a purpose and a function. |
That actually makes sense !
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"The Martial Arts begin with a point and end in a circle."
Sosai Mas Oyama founder of Kyokushin Karate. |
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cheesefrysamurai
Purple Belt
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 502
Location: New Jersey
Styles: Okinawan Goju Ryu
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
I've done forms in TKD for a lot of years that didn't have any applications for them. The ATA forms weren't designed with applications in mind like those seen from Karate kata. I've seen some application ideas for the ITF forms I do now, and have seen ideas for the Tae Guek and Pal Gwe forms. But these are rather recent innovations.
My concern with the whole thing is, why should I have to learn a form, then learn its applications, to learn self-defense? I'm a big proponent of getting into applications work as early as possible in training. |
For me, learning the bunkai unlocked the kata, unlocked the intensity needed, unlocked the intent for movements I didn't understand and it gave the understanding of why this stance with this strike, why a certain timing is necessary. Without bunkai, it's strictly a blind performance.
It's essential for me. Kata is one of those situations where it's way more than meets the eye. The only way IMO to perform it well (not necessarily for aesthetics) is to understand the application.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| cheesefrysamurai wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
I've done forms in TKD for a lot of years that didn't have any applications for them. The ATA forms weren't designed with applications in mind like those seen from Karate kata. I've seen some application ideas for the ITF forms I do now, and have seen ideas for the Tae Guek and Pal Gwe forms. But these are rather recent innovations.
My concern with the whole thing is, why should I have to learn a form, then learn its applications, to learn self-defense? I'm a big proponent of getting into applications work as early as possible in training. |
For me, learning the bunkai unlocked the kata, unlocked the intensity needed, unlocked the intent for movements I didn't understand and it gave the understanding of why this stance with this strike, why a certain timing is necessary. Without bunkai, it's strictly a blind performance.
It's essential for me. Kata is one of those situations where it's way more than meets the eye. The only way IMO to perform it well (not necessarily for aesthetics) is to understand the application. |
I see what your saying here, I really do. What I'm trying to help others understand is that there are some systems out there in which applications aren't taught with the forms. The ATA forms were designed as teaching tools for the techniques assigned to each level, and thus, each form gets a bit more difficult physically. They weren't built from a self-defense application aspect first. So for me, trying to discover ways of training applications is a bit of a different adventure.
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2734
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| cheesefrysamurai wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
I've done forms in TKD for a lot of years that didn't have any applications for them. The ATA forms weren't designed with applications in mind like those seen from Karate kata. I've seen some application ideas for the ITF forms I do now, and have seen ideas for the Tae Guek and Pal Gwe forms. But these are rather recent innovations.
My concern with the whole thing is, why should I have to learn a form, then learn its applications, to learn self-defense? I'm a big proponent of getting into applications work as early as possible in training. |
For me, learning the bunkai unlocked the kata, unlocked the intensity needed, unlocked the intent for movements I didn't understand and it gave the understanding of why this stance with this strike, why a certain timing is necessary. Without bunkai, it's strictly a blind performance.
It's essential for me. Kata is one of those situations where it's way more than meets the eye. The only way IMO to perform it well (not necessarily for aesthetics) is to understand the application. |
I see what your saying here, I really do. What I'm trying to help others understand is that there are some systems out there in which applications aren't taught with the forms. The ATA forms were designed as teaching tools for the techniques assigned to each level, and thus, each form gets a bit more difficult physically. They weren't built from a self-defense application aspect first. So for me, trying to discover ways of training applications is a bit of a different adventure. |
This is important to keep in mind--there are some forms, primarily newer ones, that were never intended to be used to transmit self defense methods. It can still be interesting to try to work out applications for them, but some just aren't meant for that. There are also some newer kata that were designed to transmit modern sport fighting methods, and those will be rather different from self defense oriented kata, as well.
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Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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Dani_001
Orange Belt
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
Posts: 137
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Styles: Okinawa Goju-Ryu Karatedo Kyokai
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:11 am Post subject: |
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Standard bunkai is imperative in my books because it opens the possibility or ideas into opening your own understanding. Most of the time after I learn a bunkai, I often do something...innovation. I add a lot of my own strikes and kicks in class.
But standard bunkai is very important to start this process.
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on the post.
