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Rainbow_Warrior
Blue Belt
Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 349
Styles: Now : MMA/luta livre/Thai , before :Kung fu,kick boxing , boxing, amateur wrestling
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 Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:59 pm Post subject: bjj, judo, luta livre,catch wrestling, sambo or GRAPPLING ? |
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hey , I see that with the popularity of MMA , and sub wrestling tournaments , the borders of every style are getting soft... Judokas join that middle east famous tournament...and train heavy newaza....Bjj guys train tons of wrestling take downs....sambo guys uses more chokes...some catch wrestling guys are using the guard much more than before ( many catch wrestlers dont like to use the guard)...
Are we going to a grappling melting pot ?
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创 The evil may win a round , but not the fight 创 |
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Throwdown0850
Blue Belt
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 338
Styles: Kodokan Judo, AikiJuJutsu, Kenpo Karate, just started Kyusho-Jitsu
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Personally, I am sick of it.. honestly.. BJJ this or wrestling that?? since when was it cool to wrestle on your back?? I hated that part of my Judo training... dont believe me? look in the "grappling" part of this forum.. there are tons and tons of topics over BJJ!!  not that its a bad MA, its a good one....just my opinion.  but can we please talk about something else for once..??
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ps1
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 1672
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:24 am Post subject: Re: bjj, judo, luta livre,catch wrestling, sambo or GRAPPLIN |
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| Rainbow_Warrior wrote: |
hey , I see that with the popularity of MMA , and sub wrestling tournaments , the borders of every style are getting soft... Judokas join that middle east famous tournament...and train heavy newaza....Bjj guys train tons of wrestling take downs....sambo guys uses more chokes...some catch wrestling guys are using the guard much more than before ( many catch wrestlers dont like to use the guard)...
Are we going to a grappling melting pot ? |
Perhaps when it comes to the sport aspect, you make a good point. However, if you have a good instructor the arts should hold up and withstand the test of time. Anyone who trains for a tournament is going to learn to fight within the rules the tournament provides. So, when watching a tournament or other sporting event, you'll see very similar movements being used by all.
However, in my experience, BJJ has more judo takedowns than wrestling takedowns. The only wrestling takedowns we really use are single leg, double leg, and the ankle pick. Conversely, we learn o goshi, hane goshi, seio nage (morote and ippon), o soto gari, ko soto gari, o uchi gari, ko uchi gari, yoko wakare, uchi mata, yoko otoshi, and tomo nage and sumi gaeshi, all of which come from Judo.
This falls in line well with the background of BJJ. Afterall, it did come from Judo and later Rolls Gracie worked with some American wrestlers and added in some of its movements and techniques. That is why the Americana is called the Americana.
The book "The Gracie Way" also outlines how BJJ added some of the Sambo style leg locks.
I guess, in a way, you're right. BJJ, at least, did incorporate several techniques from other arts. However, the Gracies did give credit to the original arts from which they came. But it's still not exactly a melting pot. More like a Beef Stew. Mostly beef and beef broth but with a few other things thrown in.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 11994
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo,Hapkido, SCA Combat, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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I think that this is a natural progression with the arrival of the submission grappling events that have come along. When people with slightly different styles show up and roll, you are bound to see something new, and pick up on something that works well. Then, people begin to train with it to see how it works. Kind of like when the UFC first started, and everyone saw how effective ground fighting was. You either had to learn it, or learn to get around it.
What's wrong with Wrestling from your back? Someday, it may be something that you need to know how to do.
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Success is where preparation meets opportunity.
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Throwdown0850
Blue Belt
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 338
Styles: Kodokan Judo, AikiJuJutsu, Kenpo Karate, just started Kyusho-Jitsu
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
I think that this is a natural progression with the arrival of the submission grappling events that have come along. When people with slightly different styles show up and roll, you are bound to see something new, and pick up on something that works well. Then, people begin to train with it to see how it works. Kind of like when the UFC first started, and everyone saw how effective ground fighting was. You either had to learn it, or learn to get around it.
What's wrong with Wrestling from your back? Someday, it may be something that you need to know how to do. |
firstly, the ground and on your back is the last place you want to be in any situation... it may help to learn but there is so so so many topics that are specifically talking about this very thing... let me say again, there is nothing wrong with BJJ.. I like it.. It is very effective... but it seems like its the "cool" thing to do nowadays...
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Rainbow_Warrior
Blue Belt
Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 349
Styles: Now : MMA/luta livre/Thai , before :Kung fu,kick boxing , boxing, amateur wrestling
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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Throwdown said
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| am sick of it.. honestly.. BJJ this or wrestling that?? since when was it cool to wrestle on your back?? I hated that part of my Judo training... dont believe me? |
Dude...I talk about any grappling , or ma in general. I dont have any issue. I dont practice BJJ , but I have to admit that BJJ is the main grappling art today....and because the number of people involved , new techniques and approaches are more like to appear in that art.
Ps1
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Perhaps when it comes to the sport aspect, you make a good point. However, if you have a good instructor the arts should hold up and withstand the test of time. Anyone who trains for a tournament is going to learn to fight within the rules the tournament provides. So, when watching a tournament or other sporting event, you'll see very similar movements being used by all.
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Sure, obviusly Judokas will practice more throws when doing straight judo. But when grapplers join a no gi submission wrestling match , they are going to fight in a similar way.
When I was talkin about BJJ and wrestling takedowns , I was talking about no gi BJJ , that is basicaly Sub-wrestling. Sure , Gi bjj will have more judo throws and take downs because the cloth grip
Bushido said
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| What's wrong with Wrestling from your back? Someday, it may be something that you need to know how to do. |
Wrestling on my back is not my favorite grappling position , but I know I HAVE TO... Yeah.... I rather be mounting , but many times , I can磘.
May people , including wrestlers and catchwrestlers , avoid the guard...I remember some old school catch guy saying very obscure things about the guard , relating it to female atributes. He said it after facing judo guys ( Bjj didnt exist in the states at that time , and probably didnt exist in brazil either. )
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创 The evil may win a round , but not the fight 创 |
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ps1
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 1672
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Rainbow_Warrior wrote: |
Ps1
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Perhaps when it comes to the sport aspect, you make a good point. However, if you have a good instructor the arts should hold up and withstand the test of time. Anyone who trains for a tournament is going to learn to fight within the rules the tournament provides. So, when watching a tournament or other sporting event, you'll see very similar movements being used by all.
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Sure, obviusly Judokas will practice more throws when doing straight judo. But when grapplers join a no gi submission wrestling match , they are going to fight in a similar way.
When I was talkin about BJJ and wrestling takedowns , I was talking about no gi BJJ , that is basicaly Sub-wrestling. Sure , Gi bjj will have more judo throws and take downs because the cloth grip
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I see. I have a bad habit. Anytime I see BJJ, I automatically think of the Gracie system. That's a bit presumptuous and a little arrogant of me. I should apologize. I bring up this point because the Gracie Jiujitsu system is a gi system. Sure, in submission wrestling events, they shed the gi. But that came about mainly because of money. More people were willing to fight without the gi. When the ADCC was formed, it tried to be fair to every style of grappler and it was decided the largest participation would come if the gi was eliminated for its tournament. However, if you train in any pure Gracie school or Gracie affiliate, you find them to be a huge advocate of the gi.
What I'm saying is when I think of BJJ, I think of gi. When I think of no gi, I usually call it submission wrestling. Just semantics.
In any case, it all goes back to the idea that the theory of BJJ, Lutre Livre, Sub-grapplers, and Sambo is the use of what works well. So their arts have assimilated the techniques that have been successful.
You could draw the same conclusion by looking at TMAs and noticing that they all use side kicks, reverse punches, high blocks and so on. But they are still different and respectable arts in their own right.
It all depends on the teacher.
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Rainbow_Warrior
Blue Belt
Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 349
Styles: Now : MMA/luta livre/Thai , before :Kung fu,kick boxing , boxing, amateur wrestling
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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I see. I have a bad habit. Anytime I see BJJ, I automatically think of the Gracie system. That's a bit presumptuous and a little arrogant of me. I should apologize. I bring up this point because the Gracie Jiujitsu system is a gi system. Sure, in submission wrestling events, they shed the gi. But that came about mainly because of money. More people were willing to fight without the gi. When the ADCC was formed, it tried to be fair to every style of grappler and it was decided the largest participation would come if the gi was eliminated for its tournament. However, if you train in any pure Gracie school or Gracie affiliate, you find them to be a huge advocate of the gi.
What I'm saying is when I think of BJJ, I think of gi. When I think of no gi, I usually call it submission wrestling. Just semantics.
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well ,maybe you thought that with a reason. GJJ is the first and main branch of BJJ... But many other guys call BJJ to their style...
I dont know how many GJJ shcools sparr frecuently without the gi. Is that practice uncommon?
What I'm saying is when I think of BJJ, I think of gi. When I think of no gi,
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What I'm saying is when I think of BJJ, I think of gi. When I think of no gi, I usually call it submission wrestling. Just semantics.
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Is think that no gi bjj sometimes can be identical to sub wrestling , but there are some differences. It can be identical to no GI BJJ cuz 90 % of the guys are bjj guys.
Many tournaments are based on the BJJ rules ( no slam , no neck cranks ,no leg locks sometimes )
But in a generic submission wrestling match , the rules can be different ( but i think that always the ruleset will go close to bjj ).
But we can say that judo , bjj , sambo , catch , and luta livre ARE submission wrestling , because two guys are wrestling and looking for a SUB....you said it Semantics....
In luta livre for example , its always no gi....the ruleset is minimal for grappling ( neck cranks ,all leg locks and wristlocks allowed ), and slaming your rival is not only permited , but sometimes encouraged in a tournament ( not in practice with your training mates where it can be seen a unpolite, of course , unless both agree that.). You can win a match if you KO the guy against , because it is like the guy taps.
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创 The evil may win a round , but not the fight 创 |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 11994
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo,Hapkido, SCA Combat, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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It sounds to me like the term Submission Grappling has more to do with a rule set than it does a set style. Any grappling stylist could enter a submission grappling tournament, and use what they know within the rule set provided. Perhaps different styles are better geared towards the submission grappling rule set, but any grappling style could adapt. BJJ has shown that it can adapt to no gi. Likewise, the Sambo guys coud enter a Judo tournament, and adapt to the use of the gi, I am sure.
Perhaps we are discussing a classification rather than a style.
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Success is where preparation meets opportunity.
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NightOwl
KF Sempai
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 981
Location: Japan
Styles: This and that, Rookie Judo
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:20 am Post subject: |
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What's the difference between kickboxing, Muay Thai, TKD, and Kyokushin? Granted, I think that there is more diversity between some one those than say, SAMBO and Judo. However they are all styles which could be filed under 'kickboxing' and would all be allowed under kickboxing rules. There are cross over techniques, but how they are applied, what is focused on, and the sparring rules distinguish them.
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on the post.
