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DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 5678
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:56 pm    Post subject: Captilizing on the Olympics Reply with quote

So we've had the Judo, Wrestling, and now Boxing and Taekwondo are underway, the Olympics will no doubt generate new interest in these martial arts.

As instructors and school owners, do you have any plans to try to captilize on the interest and sign up new students? If so, how?
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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis

PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm curious to know as well to be honest, because I feel like when people see it they will want to join up and try it out.

But on the same hand though the main negative i see with it is that people may not care for the rest of the training, as such will push for specific Kata or Kumite Training and then start competing.

Although it would in my eyes help any dojos that are struggling to stay open due to the current economic situation worldwide.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 12467
Location: Owasso, OK
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny, or depressing, I've never ever gained any new students from the Olympics. Nor, have I ever used the Olympics as a marketing tool to attract any new students.

I think that Judo and TKD schools might fair far better than any Karate school during the Olympics because, for now, Judo and TKD are the only MA's in the Olympics.

Watch Judo...Judo becomes their immediate interest and desire to learn Judo. Same thing with TKD!! Might benefit Karate when it joins the Olympics!!

I suppose that TKD might peak interests in Karate from the Olympics because of their close comparisons of one another, especially to the layperson.

Btw, great topic, Danielle!!



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DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 5678
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Funny, or depressing, I've never ever gained any new students from the Olympics. Nor, have I ever used the Olympics as a marketing tool to attract any new students.

I think that Judo and TKD schools might fair far better than any Karate school during the Olympics because, for now, Judo and TKD are the only MA's in the Olympics.

Watch Judo...Judo becomes their immediate interest and desire to learn Judo. Same thing with TKD!! Might benefit Karate when it joins the Olympics!!

I suppose that TKD might peak interests in Karate from the Olympics because of their close comparisons of one another, especially to the layperson.

Btw, great topic, Danielle!!



Actually you may be right with that comment Bob.

Google searches for TKD increased considerably when the competition started but it doesn't seem to have much effect on searches for other martial arts. In fact searches peak for Taekwondo every four years when the Olympics is on:

https://www.google.co.uk/trends/explore?date=all&q=Taekwondo

The same is true for Judo.

https://www.google.co.uk/trends/explore?date=all&q=Judo

Boxing is a slightly different story but given that it is much more well known already and professional fights receive a significant amount of promotion, it's not all that surprising
https://www.google.co.uk/trends/explore?date=all&q=Boxing

I think wrestling also benefits already from widespread popularity across America already so the interest doesn't fluctuate so much

https://www.google.co.uk/trends/explore?date=all&q=Wrestling
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MatsuShinshii
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 390
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Matsumura Shorin Ryu Rokudan 1979 to Present, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMHO this is the absolute worst thing to happen to Karate. It's bad enough that what we all call McDojo's have removed all of what traditionalists consider Karate (Kata have been modified to look good and have incorporated high flashy kicks and backflips, Kumite is replaced with patty cake and bunkai is non-existant).
I often laugh when I hear other instructors (who I consider McDojo's) complain about MMA stealing their students but do not realize that they are the reason students do not consider Karate a viable art of self defense. Instead they see it as a sport. Students join other arts to learn techniques found within their own bunkai because their instructor has removed the Jutsu and replace it with a sport.
Karate in the Olympics further confirms this ideal in the minds of the public.
I get so sick of an art I love and have spent over 3/4 of my life devoted to being diminished and "modernized" to fit into a fast food society.
Now schools and whole arts will alter their teaching methods to fit into the mold of the Olympics instead of maintaining the art they were taught.
I'm sure a lot of instructors are happy that this has happened but as for me I see this as a detriment and degradation to an art I love and respect. I see this as a slap to our founders face as this was never meant to be a sport but as a way to defend.
I'm sure my views will not be popular but I am a traditionalist who has a hard time with Kata that do not teach you to fight and Kumite that teaches you how to be fast and tricky but does not lend itself to real world applications. Most "Modern" arts have lost any true understanding of their arts true intent. This will only pull them away further from that intent.
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Luther unleashed
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 30 Jan 2014
Posts: 603
Location: Phoenix
Styles: A few!

PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I very much agree with Sensei8. The olympics are certainly not a focus of mine and have never been. I'm sure TKD schools will benafit some but Karate is just not as popular. In fact if you loom at what makes TKD so popular I'd have to argue the Olympics are the very reason.

I hear what your saying Matsushinshii. I have never ever enjoyed sport martial arts, and this is a major reason I never cared for rank when I was 17 or so. It's because I wanted to use the best things to defend myself and unless I was going to take a belt and strangle somebody in self defense it wasn't doing anything for me haha.

I am not a purist because my back round is not pure based on this same statement about what I sought out. I don't teach one martial art, and I don't follow everything just how I was taught as I wish to learn different ways to do things and maintain an open mind. So that being said I don't comercialise my program to fit business only. I think in order to make your program successful you have to conform to the desires of the comunity some though.

I hear guys say I'll never do this or that and I don't care if I only have 5 students. Well, that's personal success because everybody is different. For me I need students to live so I will conform more then a stubborn teacher that doesn't run his program as a business, but just teaches on the side. Hand out belts and make karate all fun and games? No way not me, but I often find myself trying to make things more fun, because nobody wants to just have that military feel and never see students smile. At least I dont.

I would not really care either way to be honest if Karate made the Olympics because I don't believe I have to have the popular art, to ha e the packed program. The art is usually very little conversation, it's the way the classes are run now days that pulls them in, then the exact way a technique is thrown.
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MatsuShinshii
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 390
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Matsumura Shorin Ryu Rokudan 1979 to Present, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luther unleashed wrote:


I hear guys say I'll never do this or that and I don't care if I only have 5 students. Well, that's personal success because everybody is different. For me I need students to live so I will conform more then a stubborn teacher that doesn't run his program as a business, but just teaches on the side. Hand out belts and make karate all fun and games? No way not me, but I often find myself trying to make things more fun, because nobody wants to just have that military feel and never see students smile. At least I dont.


First let me say that the following in no way is directed towards you or anyone else here. Being new to the forums I do not know any of you and it is not my intention to dishonor or say anything against any of you. The following is my issue with the direction of the art I have studied and loved for more than 3/4 of my life.
I realize how my statement might have brought you to this conclusion. It's true that I have a full time job and teach for the love of teaching and not to make money. In fact I only charge students to pay the organization it's fare share and to cover rent. I am a "purest" if that means I strictly teach the art as it was taught to me. I do believe that the founders had the right idea when they formulated the arts and that it was based on what worked in combat and on self preservation. Having said that I have studied several arts just like you in the pursuit of as much knowledge and skill as I can compile to make myself a better martial artist. I realized after years of study that all that I searched for was contained within the Kata. So in some sense I am a purest as I have decided to put all of my efforts into one art and extract the benefits and knowledge contained with in.
I do not hold anything against those that teach to make a living. I have had several instructors that did just that and I respect them immensely. I also do not have issues with those that try to loosen things up once in a while to keep it fun for their students. I realize that many teach kids and in order to maintain and foster their passion for the art it is necessary to mix things up. I personally do not teach anyone under the age of 16 but this is a tradition in my art that I have chosen to follow where others do not. This is my personal feelings and do not put them on others that teach the art.
The issue I have with "Modern" instructors of what we all call McDojo's is that they chase the all mighty dollar at the detriment of their art and students and to those that came before them. When you change a Kata, and thus loose the Bunkai, to make it more flashy to win tournaments you have changed the entire art and lost all effectiveness. Not many Modern Instructors know their Bunkai and others practice a bastardized version of it made up by them or their instructor because at some point they pulled away from the old ways in favor of modern ways that attract those students that their instructor wouldn't have wanted when they were teaching. I can't stand that their expectations have been lowered to an extent that Shodan is "just another rank" and no grade really means anything. It's the whole "trophy for everyone, just show up" methodology.
The fact that Kumite and the way it is practiced has turned into just a game of patty cakes. This does not teach students to defend themselves nor does it lend any credit to the art that was passed down to the instructor. "Great you received a trophy on Saturday and got pounded on the streets on Monday because you have no clue how to really defend yourself", does this make sense to anyone?
I was taught that I was a reflection of my instructor and those that came before me. A belt was never for sale and you earned what you received.
You can call me old fashioned or stuck in time, but I feel that changing the intent, no the soul of the art that was passed down to us to placate a few more paying students is what is destroying the art and turning it into just another after school program.
I mean no disrespect towards instructors that make things fun but maintain the integrity of their art and the requirements of said art. If you teach younger students this is almost mandatory. I also have no issues with an instructor that teaches the art but infuses fun elements to keep their students interested and maintain the passion for the art.
Having said that I have no respect for the charlatans that claim they are teaching Karate but at the same time have changed the art to benefit the few and to win trophies. Essentially turning their back on those that thought enough of them to pass the art down to them and expecting that they would teach the art with integrity by maintaining the teachings and intent of the art.
I think it is very sad that many so called "Masters" have no idea what Torite (Tuite), Tegumi, and Kyusho are and have no idea that they are contained with in the Kata (Bunkai). Most have no idea what their history is and have no idea that their art is NOT Japanese or that their art originated from a mixture of several arts that include Siamese, Chinese, and the original Okinawan art of Ti/Di to name a few and where put together to create what we now consider Karate.
Without the ties to their roots and an understanding of the original intent of their art, they are not teaching Karate.
Most have lost the old ways/techniques because they are not safe to use in tournaments. They have no idea how to use Tsukimasaki or even what it is. They have no idea what transitional stances in Kata actually represent and most could care less.
How then does the art get passed on if all that is taught is how to score a point or how to make the judges weep by executing a useless triple back flip into a powerless double side kick? How does an art survive when their so called black belts get beat up by the kids hanging out down the block because all they have ever been taught is this crap?
This is why prospective students are flocking towards the MMA gyms instead of towards the Karate Dojo's.
There is my 2 cents on the subject.
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Alan Armstrong
Pre-Black Belt
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Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 955


PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a very complicated and subjective topic to comment on.

MA heroes and flavor of the month styles continue to create interested for new students.

It has always been this way and at times we may not see the forest for trees.

The truth about martial arts (pros and cons) are hidden in the open; just seems more obvious to the experienced martial artist that's all.

As good as or as bad is a thing, the majority is fooled most of the time (and as this forum shows by some of it's members) but not all are fooled all of the time.

Judo, Boxing, TKD, Karate and MMA all mentioned about and have their strengths and weaknesses all hidden in the open.

Should any ma style be reduced to a sport? In the past and still in some places in the world martial arts is a blood sport!

The point I making is that, It is easy to create controversy and not so easy to find solutions.

Personally I believe in this day and age for martial arts, it is a great time to be in. All the changes and ma information available is nothing less than incredible.

Some belive Martial arts is being reduced to a spectators sport, so some show business is bound to creep in to improve the money flow. Money makes the world go around and the best fighter doesn't always win.

While on the other side of the story...
Traditional ma styles are becoming living dojo museums, holding on to and preserving an art or something of human value that is worth more than money for future generations to appreciate.

When traditional ma styles were openly disrespected in the past, those responsible would have been delt with severely; today it's just controversy.

Is the Olympics a money making organization? Are those that are martial artists that compete in the Olympics really the best fighters in the world? Or are these fighters primed from an early age to score points?

None of the fighters I train will ever learn anything about (Olympic) point fighting from me. They will however learn a different type of point system (the original point system) in attacking vulnerable human pressure points.

Ironically (My TKD teacher was an Olympic competitor and Olympic captain) therefore I know the difference between scoring points and pressure points.
As so few are chosen to compete, the realistic choice on what to focus on is obvious.

Are words (in this day and age) mightier than the sword? Samurai's had their day and now it's the MMA and Greek Olympic methodology.

How much TV revenue is generated from the Olympic coverage? The Olympics is doing the capitalizing not the people running gyms/clubs, kwons or dojos.
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goju1971
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 26 Dec 2016
Posts: 6
Location: DFW, Texas
Styles: Goju-Ryu

PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 8:10 pm    Post subject: More Olympic Talk Reply with quote

I have a traditional school, as much as it can be, and I too was skeptical about Olympic Karate. Still, as a dojo owner I thought I should at least educate myself on it. I didn't want Karate to become the new TKD. This isn't a slight to TKD in general, but Olympic TKD is abhorrent. I checked out the WKF and Team Japan doing team kata won me over. It was wonderful to see traditional kata and I was excited to learn that only traditional kata would be allowed.

The sparring was better than the TKD sparring I've seen in the olympics, but it can still devolve into that twitchy jump around nonsense. I don't know they don't just have kickboxing for the Olympics and leave Karate & TKD to kata. The MA competitors could do kickboxing too, but they could keep it separate. Frankly we all know sparring isn't real fighting no matter what your rules are, but the WKF kata made me very happy!
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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis

PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:26 pm    Post subject: Re: More Olympic Talk Reply with quote

goju1971 wrote:
I have a traditional school, as much as it can be, and I too was skeptical about Olympic Karate. Still, as a dojo owner I thought I should at least educate myself on it. I didn't want Karate to become the new TKD. This isn't a slight to TKD in general, but Olympic TKD is abhorrent. I checked out the WKF and Team Japan doing team kata won me over. It was wonderful to see traditional kata and I was excited to learn that only traditional kata would be allowed.

The sparring was better than the TKD sparring I've seen in the olympics, but it can still devolve into that twitchy jump around nonsense. I don't know they don't just have kickboxing for the Olympics and leave Karate & TKD to kata. The MA competitors could do kickboxing too, but they could keep it separate. Frankly we all know sparring isn't real fighting no matter what your rules are, but the WKF kata made me very happy!


Solid Post. WKF Kata does always seem to look a lot more solid than other tournament kata that I have seen on the internet. Because the only kata that are permitted are kata that are from one of the recognized Ryu-Ha. From my knowledge they only recognize Goju-Ryu, Shito-Ryu, Shotokan and Wado-Ryu Kata, and there is a Kata list that competitors are allowed to select from and perform that kata according to the schools kihon.

But from there it does become difficult because there are some styles of karate-do that are distinctly different to one of those four 'major' styles. Look at Kyokushin Karate; they have several distinct versions of Kata that is not similar to one of the major 4, so would they be permitted to perform their styles kata? honest answer I don't know.

As far as I'm aware the only thing the WKF have changed over the last 10 or so years that was directly influenced by the IOC was how points were designated. Originally it was Ippon, Nippon & Sanbon (1, 2 & 3 Points), then it got converted to the Judo Terminology for Scoring of Yuko, Waza-Ari and Ippon.

But from there they kept the same hand positioning for the referees to denote what the person scored. Also it kept things easy for the judges to indicate with their flags.

I'm sure if competitors in kumite tried to do those overtly flashy techniques that other martial arts do in the Olympics, there would be more bouts that would have a 0-0 scoreline over what they have currently.

But it is true we all know Tournament Sparring is not really what Kumite is really all about. I know Wastelander's dojo keeps Tournament Sparring to a separate class for those interested. At my dojo we incorporate Tournament Sparring (WKF Rules) for variety, but if we are to do it we have to do other forms of sparring also.
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