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Dobbersky
Black Belt
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 1323
Location: Manchester. United Kingdom
Styles: Black Tiger Ashihara Karate Jutsu, Japanese Kickboxing, Cheng Man Ch'ing TaiChi
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 Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| Ueshirokarate wrote: |
| sojobo wrote: |
| Ueshirokarate wrote: |
| Point was more that Shotokan was an influencing style. How much does not matter. Shuri-te was Funikoshi's background/training and also Motubu's. This means that there is much Shuri-te influence in Wado Ryu. I would like to think there was strong influence from Motubu and his more practical applicative view of karate and that should be of great interest to any serious karate student. |
To quote Otsuka himself...
"Okinawan Karate is to Wado as a pinch of salt is to a stew".
Sojobo |
Well I am pretty sure it was his son that said that. He can say anything he wants to sell the style, but the fact is that to my knowledge all of their katas are of Okinawan origin. I am not a Wado stylist, but to me that suggests a lot more influence of Shuri-te than these words imply. |
I agree with Ueshiro here,
I did practice Wado Ryu, and to me I found the evidence was more akin to Karate than it was to Jujitsu. (Note I have also studied Jujitsu so I am aware of what 'makes' Jujitsu Jujitsu).
The Training involved heavy input into the Okinwan Kata as opposed the the "Jujitsu" ingredient(s) of Wado Ryu. Although I know it can take a life time to 'understand' Wado Ryu and its concepts and ethos and my time studying the style may be condered as a drop in the ocean, I speak on what I saw in my training and observed in the training the other Dan grades undertook.
I remember reading a thread as to whether Wado Ryu is Karate or whether it is Jujitsu (don't recall which forum it was on)
To me as long as the Okinawan Kata is performed in Wado, that makes it karate
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"Challenge is a Dragon with a Gift in its mouth....Tame the Dragon and the Gift is Yours....." Noela Evans (author) |
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Dobbersky
Black Belt
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 1323
Location: Manchester. United Kingdom
Styles: Black Tiger Ashihara Karate Jutsu, Japanese Kickboxing, Cheng Man Ch'ing TaiChi
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:24 am Post subject: |
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Just to add, found this on another forum and wanted to pass it onto the rest of you guys on here.
http://www.visioi.net/33
The Author is Timo Klemola
Contents:
1. The structure of the kumite katas
2. Taisabaki no kata in wado-ryu
3. Kumite gatas 1 - 36
4. The three elements of kumite gata and wado-ryu as a style
5. Kuzushi - breaking the balance
6. Kyusho-jutsu of wado-ryu
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"Challenge is a Dragon with a Gift in its mouth....Tame the Dragon and the Gift is Yours....." Noela Evans (author) |
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sojobo
Green Belt
Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Posts: 462
Location: United Kingdom
Styles: Wado-ryu Karate-do, Nihon Koryu Budo, Iaido, Kenjutsu, Traditional Jujutsu, Aiki-Jujutsu
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| Ueshirokarate wrote: |
| sojobo wrote: |
| Ueshirokarate wrote: |
| Point was more that Shotokan was an influencing style. How much does not matter. Shuri-te was Funikoshi's background/training and also Motubu's. This means that there is much Shuri-te influence in Wado Ryu. I would like to think there was strong influence from Motubu and his more practical applicative view of karate and that should be of great interest to any serious karate student. |
To quote Otsuka himself...
"Okinawan Karate is to Wado as a pinch of salt is to a stew".
Sojobo |
Well I am pretty sure it was his son that said that. He can say anything he wants to sell the style, but the fact is that to my knowledge all of their katas are of Okinawan origin. I am not a Wado stylist, but to me that suggests a lot more influence of Shuri-te than these words imply. |
His son (Otsuka Jiro) did say it, and as the headmaster of the Wado-ryu Renmei, who learnt his karate directly from his father, I think that makes him the most qualified person on the planet to do so.
Yes, Otsuka took Okinawan Kata that he learnt from Funakoshi, Motobu and Mabuni and adapted them to suit his purposes.
For example, look at Wado ryu Shuto uke. There is a very deliberate reason why Otsuka chose to perform them at Jodan. I won’t go it the whys and therefore (that’s for another day) – but suffice to say it is fundamental within Wado.
On a surface level the Kata look similar to that of their Okinwan originals but beneath the surface there’s a whole lot more going on.
My point is that by making an assumption that, actually, Wado and Shotokan are not too different (as they both come from Okinawan stock) and you walk into the Wado dojo with that in mind, you setting yourself up for an epic fail.
| Dobbersky wrote: |
I agree with Ueshiro here,
I did practice Wado Ryu, and to me I found the evidence was more akin to Karate than it was to Jujitsu. (Note I have also studied Jujitsu so I am aware of what 'makes' Jujitsu Jujitsu). The Training involved heavy input into the Okinwan Kata as opposed the the "Jujitsu" ingredient(s) of Wado Ryu. Although I know it can take a life time to 'understand' Wado Ryu and its concepts and ethos and my time studying the style may be condered as a drop in the ocean, I speak on what I saw in my training and observed in the training the other Dan grades undertook. |
Depends on what you define as Jujutsu. If you are talking about the modern homogenised stuff then I agree with you but, it has direct correlations with the Jujutsu techniques found in Koryu bujutsu schools.
The Tanto-dori Kata for example are straight out of Shindo Yoshin Ryu.
There are striking similarities in our Idori kata with that of Tenshin Shinyo Ryu.
| Quote: |
| To me as long as the Okinawan Kata is performed in Wado, that makes it karate |
I’m not sure the fact that the Kata are of Okinawan origin is what makes it Karate, but I do agree with you that it is Karate.
@ Dobbersky – when you practiced Wado did you train Kihon Kumite in any detail?
The reason I ask is that this is the point where the switch from what looks and feels like “karate” (in its broader sense) to Wado Karate is most apparent. It is at this stage that most of the principles fundamental to Wado are realised. When you start to unlock these you begin to see why Otsuka utilised / modified the solo kata in that the way he did.
Sojobo
_________________
I know violence isn't the answer... I got it wrong on purpose!!!
http://www.karatedo.co.jp/wado/w_eng/e_index.htm
Last edited by sojobo on Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dobbersky
Black Belt
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 1323
Location: Manchester. United Kingdom
Styles: Black Tiger Ashihara Karate Jutsu, Japanese Kickboxing, Cheng Man Ch'ing TaiChi
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| sojobo wrote: |
...........................
@ Dobbersky – when you practiced Wado did you train Kihon Kumite in any detail?
The reason I ask is that this is the point where the switch from what looks and feels like “karate” (in its broader sense) to Wado Karate is most apparent. It is at this stage that most of the principles fundamental to Wado are realised. When you start to unlock these you begin to see why Otsuka utilised / modified the solo kata in that the way he did.
Sojobo |
I found that because I had already been practicing my style for many years before taking Wado as additional Training We already worked on "real" karate techniques which to some looked like Jujitsu Techniques anyways. I was practicing the Kihons and the Oyho Gata but found them no different to what I had already been practicing, The use of Kuzushi etc (see my previous post) had already been dare I say second nature too me via my Ashihara Karate training although via a slightly different concept.
I enjoyed Wado and wish I was still practicing it but I had to encompass my style to make it grow.
I hope you enjoy the Ebook I added
Your friend always
_________________
"Challenge is a Dragon with a Gift in its mouth....Tame the Dragon and the Gift is Yours....." Noela Evans (author) |
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sojobo
Green Belt
Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Posts: 462
Location: United Kingdom
Styles: Wado-ryu Karate-do, Nihon Koryu Budo, Iaido, Kenjutsu, Traditional Jujutsu, Aiki-Jujutsu
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| Dobbersky wrote: |
I found that because I had already been practicing my style for many years before taking Wado as additional Training We already worked on "real" karate techniques which to some looked like Jujitsu Techniques anyways. I was practicing the Kihons and the Oyho Gata but found them no different to what I had already been practicing, The use of Kuzushi etc (see my previous post) had already been dare I say second nature too me via my Ashihara Karate training although via a slightly different concept.
I enjoyed Wado and wish I was still practicing it but I had to encompass my style to make it grow.
I hope you enjoy the Ebook I added
Your friend always |
Yes, I already had Klemola's ebook - there are some interesting points there.
Ref: your comments I have emboldened above, it would not surprise me if you had practiced something similar to Ohyo Gumite, however I would be surprised if you had come across anything quite like Wado's Kihon Kumite set.
As you will have read in Klemola's book he says these were - in the most part - created by Otsuka from his experiences in Koryu Bujutsu (Samurai art of ancient Japan) namely kenjutsu and Jujutsu / Atemi Jutsu.
Are you able to post a YT clip so I can compare.
Sojobo
_________________
I know violence isn't the answer... I got it wrong on purpose!!!
http://www.karatedo.co.jp/wado/w_eng/e_index.htm |
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Ueshirokarate
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Jan 2011
Posts: 446
Styles: Matsubayashi, BJJ and a little bit of Judo
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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I am going to let you guys discuss this, as Wado is not my style and never has been.
However, I would like to clarify my point. It wasn't that Shotokan and Wado were identical, my point was that two masters of Shuri-te influenced Wado and its founder and it would be very interesting to study the style. Obviously it is unique and has other influences. I didn't mean to suggest in anyway that it was a carbon copy of Shotokan.
http://www.wadoworld.com/history/naihanchienigma/modernmasters/modernmasters.html
The history of katas are completely lost, as are the original applications of all the techniques. We are left to work at unraveling them in all there potential applications on the dojo floor. To have Shuri-te katas examined with the influence of outside martial artists who can bring their understanding of fighting techniques can help us in our journey to master our katas. This is how I think someone who has studied these same Shuri-te katas can greatly benefit from studying them from a different angle, an angle influenced by Shuri-te (and now I know from you a Naha-te master too.)
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Matsubayashi Ryu
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Ueshirokarate
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Jan 2011
Posts: 446
Styles: Matsubayashi, BJJ and a little bit of Judo
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| Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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By the way, I thought this from the style I study (we have slightly different versions than in the video) would be an interesting addition to your discussion of Wado's Kihons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KNsgXKTGxY&feature=related
The founder of Matsubayashi credited Motubu as the influence in his created these per-aranged fighting sequences which are in the video.
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Matsubayashi Ryu
CMMACC (Certified Mixed Martial Arts Conditioning Coach) |
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sojobo
Green Belt
Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Posts: 462
Location: United Kingdom
Styles: Wado-ryu Karate-do, Nihon Koryu Budo, Iaido, Kenjutsu, Traditional Jujutsu, Aiki-Jujutsu
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| Ueshirokarate wrote: |
By the way, I thought this from the style I study (we have slightly different versions than in the video) would be an interesting addition to your discussion of Wado's Kihons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KNsgXKTGxY&feature=related
The founder of Matsubayashi credited Motubu as the influence in his created these per-aranged fighting sequences which are in the video. |
Thank you for the link, I really enjoyed that.
As far as comparing it to our pair work, yes I see similarities with many of the Ippon / SanbonKumite that we do, but it is quite different (I think) to Wado's Kihon Kumite.
Techniques aside perhaps the most striking difference was the distance and timing.
What do you think Dobbersky.
Sojobo
_________________
I know violence isn't the answer... I got it wrong on purpose!!!
http://www.karatedo.co.jp/wado/w_eng/e_index.htm |
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Ueshirokarate
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Jan 2011
Posts: 446
Styles: Matsubayashi, BJJ and a little bit of Judo
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| sojobo wrote: |
| Ueshirokarate wrote: |
By the way, I thought this from the style I study (we have slightly different versions than in the video) would be an interesting addition to your discussion of Wado's Kihons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KNsgXKTGxY&feature=related
The founder of Matsubayashi credited Motubu as the influence in his created these per-aranged fighting sequences which are in the video. |
Thank you for the link, I really enjoyed that.
As far as comparing it to our pair work, yes I see similarities with many of the Ippon / SanbonKumite that we do, but it is quite different (I think) to Wado's Kihon Kumite.
Techniques aside perhaps the most striking difference was the distance and timing.
What do you think Dobbersky.
Sojobo |
The philosophy behind our techniques is to challenge each other in terms of timing and mai. What you saw in the video is just two deshi doing this in one particular way at one particular time. This kumite is there to help train us to fight with technique. You could stand there for a minute between any move, or execute all the moves in fast sequence. The more times and more ways you break it up, the better. If you do it the same way each time, there is very little challenge to the uke. You must also remember that the video I provided is several different sequences strung together in one long sequence.
As for mai, it is up to the uke to adjust theirs to deal with the attacker. The attacker may charge in, in an attempt to take over the uke's space, or may come in, in a less aggressive fashion. Once again, if it is done the same way each time, it is useless.
Here is an excerpt from Nagamine's book on these fighting techniques, starting with “Motobu, my sensei used to preach against “dead kumite”, therefore I deliberately developed kumite, seriously considering the following seven essential conditions":
http://books.google.com/books?id=0pfop_Cgb0gC&pg=PA252&lpg=PA252&dq=nagamine+dead+kumite&source=bl&ots=C2NCfAGAOf&sig=Eb4kfczp9ioqj73G-h-DqyD-dzg&hl=en&ei=y7ZsTuPTKdC40gGTrLjzBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
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sojobo
Green Belt
Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Posts: 462
Location: United Kingdom
Styles: Wado-ryu Karate-do, Nihon Koryu Budo, Iaido, Kenjutsu, Traditional Jujutsu, Aiki-Jujutsu
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:04 am Post subject: |
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When I say timing i mean in terms of sente.
Go no sen, sen no sen and sen sen no sen.
In terms of distance I was referring not so much as the active distance between uke and tori at the point of initiating the first technique, but more in terms of the length of the techniques and the finishing distance.
Sojobo
_________________
I know violence isn't the answer... I got it wrong on purpose!!!
http://www.karatedo.co.jp/wado/w_eng/e_index.htm |
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on the post.
