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Ueshirokarate
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Jan 2011
Posts: 446
Styles: Matsubayashi, BJJ and a little bit of Judo
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 Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| sojobo wrote: |
When I say timing i mean in terms of sente.
Go no sen, sen no sen and sen sen no sen.
In terms of distance I was referring not so much as the active distance between uke and tori at the point of initiating the first technique, but more in terms of the length of the techniques and the finishing distance.
Sojobo |
Forgive me, I just don't understand the first two sentences in your post. As for your comment regarding distance, what I said in my prior post applies across all movements in the kumite, not just the first move. In class, we keep switching partners and you can find yourself against a 5' woman and than next opponent is a man who is 6'6" with completely different mai and timing in each move. By chance, did you visit the book I linked? I am curious if there is anything like that philosophically in Wado's kumite gatas.
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Matsubayashi Ryu
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sojobo
Green Belt
Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Posts: 462
Location: United Kingdom
Styles: Wado-ryu Karate-do, Nihon Koryu Budo, Iaido, Kenjutsu, Traditional Jujutsu, Aiki-Jujutsu
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| Ueshirokarate wrote: |
| sojobo wrote: |
When I say timing i mean in terms of sente.
Go no sen, sen no sen and sen sen no sen.
In terms of distance I was referring not so much as the active distance between uke and tori at the point of initiating the first technique, but more in terms of the length of the techniques and the finishing distance.
Sojobo |
Forgive me, I just don't understand the first two sentences in your post. As for your comment regarding distance, what I said in my prior post applies across all movements in the kumite, not just the first move. In class, we keep switching partners and you can find yourself against a 5' woman and than next opponent is a man who is 6'6" with completely different mai and timing in each move. By chance, did you visit the book I linked? I am curious if there is anything like that philosophically in Wado's kumite gatas. |
Apologies, I wrote that on the wing as it were - should have explained a bit clearer.
By timing there are basically 3 ways to deal with an attack (let’s say a punch).
Go no sen - basically means to block/avoid first then counter attack second
Sen no sen - is to defend and counter simultaneously
Sen sen no sen - is to take the initiative and strike first as soon as an attack seems inevitable.
Tell me where to go if you already knew that lol.
I have attached some footage of what I was referring to when I mean distance.
This is our Kihon Kumite no. 2. You will note that after avoiding the kick, tori closes down the distance entirely. That was what I was referring to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1qDMQqVYUs&feature=related
[Edit] and even more so in Kihon Kumite 8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBNtBu68aI0&feature=related
I did note that in the Shorin Ryu clip you posted that was applied on a couple of cases but in the most part the distance was greater.
Yes, I did read the eBook snippet and there are points detailed that are embraced in Wado ryu Kihon Kumite. As far as philosophies are concerned however probably the most important is that of “ko bo ittai” which basically means attack and defence are one. So although we talk about attacker and defender they are the same really when we approach Kihon Kumite.
Sojobo
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http://www.karatedo.co.jp/wado/w_eng/e_index.htm |
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Ueshirokarate
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Jan 2011
Posts: 446
Styles: Matsubayashi, BJJ and a little bit of Judo
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| sojobo wrote: |
Apologies, I wrote that on the wing as it were - should have explained a bit clearer.
By timing there are basically 3 ways to deal with an attack (let’s say a punch).
Go no sen - basically means to block/avoid first then counter attack second
Sen no sen - is to defend and counter simultaneously
Sen sen no sen - is to take the initiative and strike first as soon as an attack seems inevitable.
Tell me where to go if you already knew that lol.
I have attached some footage of what I was referring to when I mean distance.
This is our Kihon Kumite no. 2. You will note that after avoiding the kick, tori closes down the distance entirely. That was what I was referring to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1qDMQqVYUs&feature=related
[Edit] and even more so in Kihon Kumite 8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBNtBu68aI0&feature=related
I did note that in the Shorin Ryu clip you posted that was applied on a couple of cases but in the most part the distance was greater.
Yes, I did read the eBook snippet and there are points detailed that are embraced in Wado ryu Kihon Kumite. As far as philosophies are concerned however probably the most important is that of “ko bo ittai” which basically means attack and defence are one. So although we talk about attacker and defender they are the same really when we approach Kihon Kumite.
Sojobo |
Thank you for that clarification, as I have heard those terms but didn't really understand their meaning. They aren't really a part of our system's lingo.
Within that clip, there are seven different pre-aranged sequences. Each one is different in terms of attack techniques and response. While there are initiating attacks in each of the yakusoku kumite, these are only for the purpose of training the karateka how to deal with an attack. There is no first attack in any Matsubayashi kata ("Karate Ni Sente Nashi" in practice), so you wouldn't see sensen no sen in a Matsubayashi yakusoku kumite. We can debate whether this means to never initiate attack, or to always wait for your opponent's first move as a strategy on a another thread. That said, there is a combination of both go no sen and sen no sen within the yakusoku kumites.
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Matsubayashi Ryu
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sojobo
Green Belt
Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Posts: 462
Location: United Kingdom
Styles: Wado-ryu Karate-do, Nihon Koryu Budo, Iaido, Kenjutsu, Traditional Jujutsu, Aiki-Jujutsu
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:51 am Post subject: |
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That's interesting.
I know that Motobu believed that "Sente" was all important.
In fact he even went as far as saying that "Karate is Sente" (see point 6).
http://motobu-ryu.org/sayings.aspx
It is an important aspect of Wado-ryu also.
Going back to the clip, did you understand my clarification about distance?
Also as you will have seen from the Takagi clips i posted kuzushi is an important feature also. Does this come into play with your pair work?
Sojobo
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I know violence isn't the answer... I got it wrong on purpose!!!
http://www.karatedo.co.jp/wado/w_eng/e_index.htm |
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Ueshirokarate
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Jan 2011
Posts: 446
Styles: Matsubayashi, BJJ and a little bit of Judo
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| sojobo wrote: |
That's interesting.
I know that Motobu believed that "Sente" was all important.
In fact he even went as far as saying that "Karate is Sente" (see point 6).
http://motobu-ryu.org/sayings.aspx
It is an important aspect of Wado-ryu also.
Going back to the clip, did you understand my clarification about distance?
Also as you will have seen from the Takagi clips i posted kuzushi is an important feature also. Does this come into play with your pair work?
Sojobo |
Here is an interesting article on this very subject:
http://www.karatebyjesse.com/?p=5249
Nagamine (founder of my style) is quoted at the end. I also found this article on the same website:
http://www.karatebyjesse.com/?p=4558
Which kind of brings the discussion here back in a full circle, as it discusses two important influences on Wado Ryu and the conflict between them.
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Matsubayashi Ryu
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Dobbersky
Black Belt
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 1323
Location: Manchester. United Kingdom
Styles: Black Tiger Ashihara Karate Jutsu, Japanese Kickboxing, Cheng Man Ch'ing TaiChi
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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Apologies for not responding sooner, forgive me. I'll respond next week when I got my computer, its awkward on a Blackberry lol.
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"Challenge is a Dragon with a Gift in its mouth....Tame the Dragon and the Gift is Yours....." Noela Evans (author) |
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sojobo
Green Belt
Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Posts: 462
Location: United Kingdom
Styles: Wado-ryu Karate-do, Nihon Koryu Budo, Iaido, Kenjutsu, Traditional Jujutsu, Aiki-Jujutsu
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Ueshirokarate wrote: |
| Which kind of brings the discussion here back in a full circle, as it discusses two important influences on Wado Ryu and the conflict between them. |
Indeed, and you see now what I mean about Wado and comparing it to Shotokan?
Sojobo
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I know violence isn't the answer... I got it wrong on purpose!!!
http://www.karatedo.co.jp/wado/w_eng/e_index.htm |
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Ueshirokarate
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Jan 2011
Posts: 446
Styles: Matsubayashi, BJJ and a little bit of Judo
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| sojobo wrote: |
| Ueshirokarate wrote: |
| Which kind of brings the discussion here back in a full circle, as it discusses two important influences on Wado Ryu and the conflict between them. |
Indeed, and you see now what I mean about Wado and comparing it to Shotokan?
Sojobo |
I think you completely missed my point earlier (sorry for not being that clear in making it), as you some how think I was saying that Wado was some extension of Shotokan or some style that basically took Shotokan's katas and called it a new style. My point was more that studying Wado would give one with a Shotokan background a much deeper understanding of Shuri-te katas of which they were already familiar. These katas are not Shotakon, they are patterns of movement developed long before Funikoshi was born, with the exception of the Pinans which were either created or broken up into the five katas we know when Funikoshi was 9 years old by Itosu. Funikoshi didn't create his katas and neither did Motubu or my system's founder (with the exception of Fukyugata Ichi), yet they all studied and applied them in different ways. Applying Wado's method of study to Shuri-te katas is just a path and I think a good one at that, to understand their application.
For example, Judo is Japanese style derived from Jiu Jitsu. After taking Judo, I much better understood the katas I had practiced so many times before and their applications in a fight. Moves I used to scratch my head to as totally impractical suddenly made sense. It was just looking at something from a slightly different angle. One must remember that the human body can only move in so many different ways and you are either striking, blocking or throwing your opponent in any sequence within a kata. It also must be remembered that the Okinawans interacted with both the Japanese and Chinese, so they were familiar with their styles of fighting and to think there wasn't heavy cross-pollination between these cultures and their fighting systems is to just be silly.
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Matsubayashi Ryu
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Dobbersky
Black Belt
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 1323
Location: Manchester. United Kingdom
Styles: Black Tiger Ashihara Karate Jutsu, Japanese Kickboxing, Cheng Man Ch'ing TaiChi
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| sojobo wrote: |
| Dobbersky wrote: |
I found that because I had already been practicing my style for many years before taking Wado as additional Training We already worked on "real" karate techniques which to some looked like Jujitsu Techniques anyways. I was practicing the Kihons and the Oyho Gata but found them no different to what I had already been practicing, The use of Kuzushi etc (see my previous post) had already been dare I say second nature too me via my Ashihara Karate training although via a slightly different concept.
I enjoyed Wado and wish I was still practicing it but I had to encompass my style to make it grow.
I hope you enjoy the Ebook I added
Your friend always |
Yes, I already had Klemola's ebook - there are some interesting points there.
Ref: your comments I have emboldened above, it would not surprise me if you had practiced something similar to Ohyo Gumite, however I would be surprised if you had come across anything quite like Wado's Kihon Kumite set.
As you will have read in Klemola's book he says these were - in the most part - created by Otsuka from his experiences in Koryu Bujutsu (Samurai art of ancient Japan) namely kenjutsu and Jujutsu / Atemi Jutsu.
Are you able to post a YT clip so I can compare.
Sojobo |
Hi Sojobo-san
Can't find anything on YT to emphasis what I wanted to show you, I'll have to do some once my knee is better
Here's a few Ashihara Videos to show our core
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tqXH2fGnvg&feature=related
Here's Sempai Brad going through some of out techniques
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD7zWdMCj7E&feature=related
For those who are unsure about Wado Gumite here's a good example, they make it look easy
Kihon Gumite
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0xj9TQbzGI&feature=related
and Ohyo Gumite
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rl1F2mZ2Dc
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"Challenge is a Dragon with a Gift in its mouth....Tame the Dragon and the Gift is Yours....." Noela Evans (author) |
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Dobbersky
Black Belt
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 1323
Location: Manchester. United Kingdom
Styles: Black Tiger Ashihara Karate Jutsu, Japanese Kickboxing, Cheng Man Ch'ing TaiChi
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:08 am Post subject: |
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So back to differences between Wado and Shotokan
it can be seen in the first kata
Shotokan's Heian Shodan (Kanazawa Sensei)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rgg8vF_l8ZI
Wado's Pinan Nidan (Jiro Otsuka Sensei)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drV3vAgZYh4
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"Challenge is a Dragon with a Gift in its mouth....Tame the Dragon and the Gift is Yours....." Noela Evans (author) |
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on the post.
