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Ueshirokarate
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Jan 2011
Posts: 446
Styles: Matsubayashi, BJJ and a little bit of Judo
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 Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:43 am Post subject: |
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Not tremendous difference, they are both pretty much doing the same moves from a functional stand-point.
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Matsubayashi Ryu
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Dobbersky
Black Belt
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 1323
Location: Manchester. United Kingdom
Styles: Black Tiger Ashihara Karate Jutsu, Japanese Kickboxing, Cheng Man Ch'ing TaiChi
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| Ueshirokarate wrote: |
Not tremendous difference, they are both pretty much doing the same moves from a functional stand-point. |
Exactly Ueshiro-san
Its just dare I say a difference of opinion. Or for example may be a different Dialect, i have read that Otsuka Sensei practiced the Pinans/Heians the same way as Funakoshi but either Mabuni Sensei of Shito-ryu and Motobu Choki Sensei re-taught Otsuka Sensei the Kata the "original" way?
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sojobo
Green Belt
Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Posts: 462
Location: United Kingdom
Styles: Wado-ryu Karate-do, Nihon Koryu Budo, Iaido, Kenjutsu, Traditional Jujutsu, Aiki-Jujutsu
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| Ueshirokarate wrote: |
Not tremendous difference, they are both pretty much doing the same moves from a functional stand-point. |
I beg to differ.
I don't see many techniques that are the same.
There is even a variation in the embussen.
I am at work at the moment so can't spend too much time on the subject, but I will expand later on tonight.
Sojobo
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I know violence isn't the answer... I got it wrong on purpose!!!
http://www.karatedo.co.jp/wado/w_eng/e_index.htm |
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sojobo
Green Belt
Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Posts: 462
Location: United Kingdom
Styles: Wado-ryu Karate-do, Nihon Koryu Budo, Iaido, Kenjutsu, Traditional Jujutsu, Aiki-Jujutsu
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:07 am Post subject: |
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These are not Kihon Gumite featured in this clip.
The pair work detailed here is Kumite Gata which is a different set.
Kumite Gata are only really practiced within the Wado-ryu renmei. The JKF Wado-kai and WIKF do not practice these (strictly speaking).
Sojobo
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Ueshirokarate
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Jan 2011
Posts: 446
Styles: Matsubayashi, BJJ and a little bit of Judo
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| sojobo wrote: |
| Ueshirokarate wrote: |
Not tremendous difference, they are both pretty much doing the same moves from a functional stand-point. |
I beg to differ.
I don't see many techniques that are the same.
There is even a variation in the embussen.
I am at work at the moment so can't spend too much time on the subject, but I will expand later on tonight.
Sojobo |
I don't really see anything that would substantially change what the performer is doing. Yes, there are substantial stylistic differences. There is no doubt about this. However, the performer is still pretty much delivering the same techniques in the same sequence. Just as in my style's version of the kata. It isn't like suddenly the kata move has gone from a knife hand to the gut or upper punch from a down-block. It is still a down-block. Here is the Matsubayashi version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY-_vPnw97k
It would be very interesting to be on the deck together exploring bunkai of each. I believe the biggest difference is in the ending sequence. Wado employes a shuto zuke where as in Matsubayashi and Shotokan it is a shuto uke the latter having a jigotai dachi stance and the former a neko ashi dachi. That said, even when we are delivering a shuto-uke with one hand, the other can deliver a shuto-zuke, so at the end of the day we are still all traveling parallel paths.
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Matsubayashi Ryu
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sojobo
Green Belt
Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Posts: 462
Location: United Kingdom
Styles: Wado-ryu Karate-do, Nihon Koryu Budo, Iaido, Kenjutsu, Traditional Jujutsu, Aiki-Jujutsu
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| Ueshirokarate wrote: |
I don't really see anything that would substantially change what the performer is doing. Yes, there are substantial stylistic differences. There is no doubt about this. However, the performer is still pretty much delivering the same techniques in the same sequence. Just as in my style's version of the kata. It isn't like suddenly the kata move has gone from a knife hand to the gut or upper punch from a down-block. It is still a down-block. Here is the Matsubayashi version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY-_vPnw97k
It would be very interesting to be on the deck together exploring bunkai of each. I believe the biggest difference is in the ending sequence. Wado employes a shuto zuke where as in Matsubayashi and Shotokan it is a shuto uke the latter having a jigotai dachi stance and the former a neko ashi dachi. That said, even when we are delivering a shuto-uke with one hand, the other can deliver a shuto-zuke, so at the end of the day we are still all traveling parallel paths. |
As I say there is quite a lot there, but I will expand tonight.
You mention about Bunkai - strickly speaking Wado does not have bunkai.
Another important point to consider.
Sojobo
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I know violence isn't the answer... I got it wrong on purpose!!!
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Ueshirokarate
Green Belt
Joined: 15 Jan 2011
Posts: 446
Styles: Matsubayashi, BJJ and a little bit of Judo
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| sojobo wrote: |
As I say there is quite a lot there, but I will expand tonight.
You mention about Bunkai - strickly speaking Wado does not have bunkai.
Another important point to consider.
Sojobo |
Looking forward to it.
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Matsubayashi Ryu
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Dobbersky
Black Belt
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 1323
Location: Manchester. United Kingdom
Styles: Black Tiger Ashihara Karate Jutsu, Japanese Kickboxing, Cheng Man Ch'ing TaiChi
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| Ueshirokarate wrote: |
| sojobo wrote: |
As I say there is quite a lot there, but I will expand tonight.
You mention about Bunkai - strickly speaking Wado does not have bunkai.
Another important point to consider.
Sojobo |
Looking forward to it. |
I am too,
Also would you be able to expand on the difference between Wado Ryu and Wado Kai, my appologies for not differenciating between the 2 on my post regards Kihon Gumite
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sojobo
Green Belt
Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Posts: 462
Location: United Kingdom
Styles: Wado-ryu Karate-do, Nihon Koryu Budo, Iaido, Kenjutsu, Traditional Jujutsu, Aiki-Jujutsu
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:39 am Post subject: |
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Trying to explain karate in detail on a technical level over internet is never easy. Not always a good thing to try even.
I suppose the first point I would always say would be to look beyond the technique – ie don’t just look at the kicks and punches – look at what the body is doing as a complete unit - how it is moving.
What the hey, let’s have a go...
First technique:
Shoto version: Turn 90 deg to the left – perform gedan barai in zenkutsu dachi.
Wado version: No (or little) rotation of torso – perform chudan otoshi tetsui-uke in Hanmi nekoashi dachi.
Result:
Shotokan employs “single moment” rotation of the hips to power the gedan barai whereas wado uses double moment. Distance changes and weight distribution are entirely different.
The two versions apply very differently.
Punches:
Shoto version uses Oi-zuki.
Wado version uses Junzuki -they are different techniques, they look the same but the weight distribution is different and the power generation not quite the same.
Jodan Uke’s:
Shoto uses Jodan age uke - finishes in front of the forehead.
Wado Jodan uke arm finishes directly above the head.
Also, note the lack of opposite arm preparation in the Wado version.
Last 4 techniques:
Shoto version: Shuto uke in kokotsu-dachi
Wado version: Nukite in shiko dachi
Result:
The techniques and application are completely different.
In the Shoto version, the hips and arm movement work in concert to support a block or a strike that that enters from the side.
In the Wado version the hips open out in counter direction to the hand technique which is tsuki. We refer to this as opening the body.
Rather than blocking/striking from the side the arms travel directly down the seichussen.
It can be used as a direct strike but it is also ideal to perform “Noru” which is where you ride your opponents attacking technique whilst simultaneously striking. By rotation the body in a counter direction you are not only generating power in the technique, you are also changing the shape of your body and your line - essentially you are reducing the surface area shown to your opponent and giving ukes technique the slip.
If I think of anything else I will let you know.
Sojobo
_________________
I know violence isn't the answer... I got it wrong on purpose!!!
http://www.karatedo.co.jp/wado/w_eng/e_index.htm
Last edited by sojobo on Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:22 am; edited 3 times in total |
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sojobo
Green Belt
Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Posts: 462
Location: United Kingdom
Styles: Wado-ryu Karate-do, Nihon Koryu Budo, Iaido, Kenjutsu, Traditional Jujutsu, Aiki-Jujutsu
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| Dobbersky wrote: |
| Also would you be able to expand on the difference between Wado Ryu and Wado Kai, my appologies for not differenciating between the 2 on my post regards Kihon Gumite |
There is no difference. It is all Wado-ryu, just different associations.
Once upon a time everyone who did Wado-ryu were members of the Wado-kai, but there are now 3 major groups:
JKF (Japan Karate Federation) Wado-kai*
Wado-ryu Renmei (Jiro Otsuka's Group).
WIKF (Wado international Karate Federation) the late Suzuki sensei group.
Hope that helps
Sojobo
* Note there is a group in Canada who also call themselves Wado-kai but they are nothing to do with the JKF Wado-kai.
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I know violence isn't the answer... I got it wrong on purpose!!!
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on the post.
