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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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 Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:41 pm Post subject: Cooperative vs Competitive training |
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How much of your training is cooperative or is it mostly competitive?
Are you cooperating or competing with your fellow students?
I believe this to be a very controversial subject as this topic touches on the escalation and de-escalation of violence in Dojos between students. |
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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 687
Location: Central Maine
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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It depends. Mostly we cooperate when we work together to develop a skill. We compete when we kumite.
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"Those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know." ~ Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching
"Walk a single path, becoming neither cocky with victory nor broken with defeat, without forgetting caution when all is quiet or becoming frightened when danger threatens." ~ Jigaro Kano |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16420
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: Cooperative vs Competitive training |
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| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| How much of your training is cooperative or is it mostly competitive? |
100%...for both!!
How so??
Cooperation is a must need for the entire student body. Without cooperation, what can one accomplish on the floor?? Learning requires cooperation across the board; not one way is better than the other, nor can one survive without the other, nor can one learn without cooperation from both sides of any equation.
Competitive nature fuels the cooperation is such a way, that life is breathed into the activity at the dojo at any given time. Positive competition is a must need because it feeds the learning curve.
Both has its give and take to them, but how they're approached, is everything in the MA.
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| Are you cooperating or competing with your fellow students? |
Again, both!! One can't be without the other; they're quite dependent of each other.
When I'm on the floor teaching, I demand cooperation from the student body, and in that, that includes myself, as well. Don't believe anything I teach without first...testing it..., and that requires a diligence on both parties. Yes, the floor decides EVERYTHING, with or without cooperation, hence, my students and I might as well cooperate with one another, the sooner, the better!!
Once on the floor, education in the seek of knowledge trumps everything. As a MAist, I must compete with my fellow MAist, how am I too learn how to Kumite, for one, unless I compete with A MAist on any given floor in a safe atmosphere, how can I learn the nuances of Kumite.
Competition, of any degree, doesn't belong on the floor. Why? Competition on the floor begets evils that aren't tolerated. Jealousy, and the like, are birthed through being competitive on the floor, UNLESS, that competition is required, and requested by the CI for learning purposes alone.
It can be a fine line, either way!!
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| I believe this to be a very controversial subject as this topic touches on the escalation and de-escalation of violence in Dojos between students. |
If the CI is in total control of the student body, then violence won't exist!! I run the entire dojo operation, on and off the floor; I set the tone, at all times. Tempers will flare, but that flare, won't turn into a uncontrolled brush fire because I control everything in my dojo, as well as in the Hombu.
Violence is allowed because the CI isn't in control of squat in their dojo!! However, seeing that the CI sets the tone, any violence has been uprooted because the CI allows it to occur. Violence begets violence!!
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2357
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:51 am Post subject: |
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100% to both Co-operative and Competitive, as you will inherently want to compete with each other in the dojo whilst training.
Usually it boils down to who does it better, faster (or slower), stronger etc.
However everyone who is competitive in my dojo are doing it in a friendly way. And will go "haha i beat you there" as a result and never use violence as a result. |
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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Both but in different amounts. All the time we're pushing each other to see who can punch harder, faster, do one more rep, or outmanoeuvre their opponent. But at the same time you're also trying to help the other members in the dojo and guide them to success. It's a balance between both cooperation and competition which swings one way or the other depending on the moment.
Cooperation is funny one in the martial arts. It's an individual pursuit but with many team or teamwork aspects. It's what drew me to TKD in the first place. Everyone is practicing individually and alone, yet everyone pushes one another and wants everyone else to succeed. I found MA had a better team atmosphere than the team sports I was playing.
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"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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For me, its always been both, in a way. Most of the drilling is done cooperatively, which enables both students the chance to learn and apply, and work out the kinks. Gradually, you add to the drill with increased resistance and variables, often brought in through some form of competition.
In another sense, when doing forms or basics, I always used it as a competition, comparing myself to others in the class as we move alongside each other. I would challenge myself to try to kick higher, or faster, or punch with more power, or do a better front stance, than someone else in the room. So, I used it as competition in that sense. The others might not know, but they should be competing against me in order to push themselves, as well. Or at least that's what I think to myself.
Now, when it comes to sparring, it goes both ways, as well. Sparring, but its very nature, is a competitive aspect of training. When we put the pads on and I line up against someone, I get competitive, and take the opportunity as such. Now, my level of competitiveness changes based on the rank/age/ability of who is across from me. Young athletic teenagers that are high rank? Yeah, I'll push myself against them. Children? No. Someone who likes to brag or talk some smack? Yeah, I'll use that as competitive motivation. So it depends. Some days, I don't compete with others, and just let things kind of flow. But the way I see it, competition is an important part of training, in the right respects.
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Safroot
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 22 Dec 2013
Posts: 911
Location: Sydney, Australia
Styles: Kyokushin
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with sensei8 & Nidan melbourne, In our dojo it's always both even in kumite your higher grade partner might stop & show you how to block or correct a technique or .... etc
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"The Martial Arts begin with a point and end in a circle."
Sosai Mas Oyama founder of Kyokushin Karate. |
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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As others have said, I think both are important. Cooperation is key while you are learning and refining a skill. Once you've established competence you need to test that with competitive learning. This is where individuals really learn to make technique their own and apply it outside the bounds of the best case scenario.
This is why I'm a big fan of sparring for standup arts and probably why I was drawn to BJJ, at least half of the training is live. I think this is a good split. Both are critical.
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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The older I get, the more I feel the true competition is competition against myself. I can't control how good or bad someone I'm sparring with is. All I can do is outdo myself. He better than I was last time. If someone kicks my in the head 5 times with the same kick, it's on me. It's MY job to adjust and make sure I don't fall for that fake again.
When I first started at my current dojo, people thought I was getting mad at them when they hit me. I got an odd look one time from a senior student after he stopped about a millimeter short of knocking my teeth out with a hook kick. I had my typical look and mumbled a few choice words. No one heard me, but everyone knew what I said. I respectfully bowed and said "sorry, senpai. I'm not mad at you, I'm mad at myself." Everyone nodded and carried on. They've gotten used to me and know I'm sincere when I say that.
We were doing some extra training for a few weeks for our annual organization tournament last year. It was me (4th kyu) and 7 black belts ranging from nidan to yondan. Needless to say I gave up way more points than I scored. One of the nidans said (in a great way) "watching your face during sparring is priceless." He had the impression of me getting hit down pat. We all had a great laugh. |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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Cooperative vs Competitive, sounds like they are both equally important across the board on this thread.
Having both of these ingredients in mind does seem important, in creating a healthy atmosphere in the Dojo for everyone. |
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on the post.
