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Mtal
Yellow Belt
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Posts: 83
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 Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:59 pm Post subject: Defence against multiple punches? |
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Hi all,
Ok I am not sure what the term is for it, but looking at videos of street fights, it seems most people just brawl, throw many multiple punches as fast as they can. It might be actually a good strategy if your bigger or stronger. Anyway, I was wondering how you would defend against something like that, being that it might be something one can possible face.
Thanks.
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Hawkmoon
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jun 2013
Posts: 891
Location: MK in the UK
Styles: Kyokushin
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:45 am Post subject: Re: Defence against multiple punches? |
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Hi Mtal,
Welcome!
Lets have a go at this... 
| Mtal wrote: |
| ...but looking at videos of street fights, it seems most people just brawl, throw many multiple punches as fast as they can. |
Yup!
"I" call them '30 second psychos', the reasoning is simple ....
| Mtal wrote: |
It might be actually a good strategy if your bigger or stronger. Anyway, I was wondering how you would defend against something like that, being that it might be something one can possible face.
Thanks. |
... is it a good idea?
is it a good strategy in a fight?
Nah!
utterly pointless and serves only to offer you up for easy pickings!
Maybe others do this, we do for sure in our dojo. We work on this as a potential situation in the real world. We work on prolonged attacks, beyond 30 seconds, and by that training we also work on prolonged defense against such an attacker!
Basically the 'defender/victim' covers up moves around as best they can whilst blocking or evading the attack(s), be this they physically move an arm or leg to drive the punch or kick past them or deflect much/most of the power, or simply duck swivel and let the attack miss them!
Over time they start to feel the reduction in power the slow down in the volume of attacks and so have the advantage .... they can gauge there opponent and prepare and be ready to return the 'favor' and close the matter as the victor!
The attacker on the other hand is developing stamina, and working on there ability to hide (if that's the right or best word to use) how worn out they are becoming as they sustain the over long barrage!
(Its a ability they cannot ever develop, and will always loose out to !)
The attacker is trying to break the other guy down to end it in 30, 60 90 seconds, by not giving the other person a chance to attack...
In the early 'fights' they do get the odd win, as the other guy work on evading and blocking at close range and so on, but it a short lived period of wins!
The person who defends in a short period of time always wins!
They wait, and wait and are much much fresher when the other is not and then they take over!
Over time both are able to sustain long periods of attack or defense, but no matter what, the defender is always the victor!
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“A human life gains luster and strength only when it is polished and tempered.”
Sosai Masutatsu Oyama (1923 - 1994) Founder of Kyokushin Karate. |
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mal103
Purple Belt
Joined: 21 May 2011
Posts: 559
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:13 am Post subject: |
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Keep running is the first option, not sure on what else is going on or who else is joining in.
If not then keep calm, breath and evade. Take small hits but avoid getting damaged, either allow them to slow down or look for an opening. Effective blocking can deter them, like a raised elbow to a bicep muscle, or a forearm smash to their inner arms using the bony part of yours.
You are also looking to disrupt them, attack their balance, try to get hold of something so you can move to their side and away from the punches. Another tactic is to strike vulnerable areas to cause maximum pain or move in.
I've trained with karateka who come in all guns blazing, my favourite response is to grab and throw, once you disrupt their flow you need to follow up quick and then escape.
Better to be aware so you can aviod it though. |
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:17 am Post subject: |
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Yes, get away. In a SD setting we should be talking about escape at this point. Now, what if we have to deal with this.
First, it is common. Second, it is hard to deal with it.
My take, respectfully, is slightly different in dealing with this situation. Defense WILL NOT WIN. Ever. Continually defending will only ensure that you finally catch one. You lose momentum, you lose timing.
From my experience, launching your own offensive as quickly as possible is the key. You might defend out of the gate, but that is ONLY to allow you to adjust timing to start your offense. That's it. The true skill of martial arts is in attack. The fast you apply a threat back the fast you start winning.
So, for my money and experience, immediate protection followed by immediate offense in the most violent (within proper use of force) manner possible to disrupt the attacker OODA loop.
This will look different for each and every person here. For me, that's an immediate cover or interception and at the same time crashing the gap to lay hands on the attacker. Preferably with a body lock where I exert control. Once I'm there, with momentum, I can effect the takedown. Now, Captain Flurry is on his back and while he can still hit me he can do so with little real force and I'm on top with some serious amount of control.
This affords me the ability to do several things, any of which might be the right call given a situation. I can strike, hold and wait for partners, disengage from a position of cover and strength, or exert further control.
Now, if one is more of a striker (and prior to my BJJ time I was in this group as well so I can speak to it as well) that might look more like cutting an angle on an attack and firing my own strike, again focusing on the attack and not the defense. Using body mechanics and footwork to protect ones self while jamming, defanging, or otherwise attacking around the initial assault. Once you've got initiative, it's a straight blast maneuver (or such) from an advantageous angle which continues until he covers. Once his defense is begun, you don't let it end. Ever. Your assault continues until the fight is over.
There are other options that kind of go beyond the initial question, as to escalation of weapons, ect. Also option (and maybe good ones) but beyond the scope of the question.
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Harkon72
Black Belt
Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 1875
Location: Wales
Styles: Okinawan Karate, Aikido, Ninpo.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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My advice, move, don't stand there. Some people think they can take a hit, this could leave them hurt or even dead. Move off line and away, if there is someone in your way, move them. If someone wants to throw punches at you, don't exchange them with the person, if you have shoes, kick, if you really have no choice, strike and claw; but don't stand there or fight on his terms.
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jaypo
Purple Belt
Joined: 26 Apr 2012
Posts: 520
Styles: Shotokan, Shorin Ryu
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:49 am Post subject: |
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One thing we started to learn as advanced belts was how to transform any defensive move to an attack. In our first Kata, Heian Shodan, every single block is an attack. And from my Karate training, we learn a lot of different off angle defense and attacks. Now, incorporating Kyusho to my existing training, every single thing becomes a target. From the tips of the attacker's finger to his spleen inside his body. My strategy would depend on how well prepared I was for the barrage. If I'm prepared, I'd probably use angles to defend and then attack his attack, or "block" his barrage at key "regions" to make him think twice about using that limb to attack me with. That would disrupt his energy. Then, it would be followed with a barrage of my own and/or joint lock or whatever I could do to totally disable him from attacking me.
If I were unprepared but still able to avoid that first sucker punch, I would use my footwork to evade his attacks until I am able begin my counters. Then, refer to game plan above!
Again, everybody has a game plan until they get punched in the mouth. But one advantage I'm seeing from studying Kyusho is that even without my full wits about me, if I get my hands on an attacker, I can inflict pain from anywhere. From his toe to his head.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16427
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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In Shindokan, we're taught, and we teach, to not address each and every punch targeted towards you. To do so leads to fatigue as well as missed deflections! Not all punches are an immediate threat!! Be aware, but do not be sucked into their fight!!
Look for openings...they'll be there!!
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| tallgeese wrote: |
Yes, get away. In a SD setting we should be talking about escape at this point. Now, what if we have to deal with this.
First, it is common. Second, it is hard to deal with it.
My take, respectfully, is slightly different in dealing with this situation. Defense WILL NOT WIN. Ever. Continually defending will only ensure that you finally catch one. You lose momentum, you lose timing.
From my experience, launching your own offensive as quickly as possible is the key. You might defend out of the gate, but that is ONLY to allow you to adjust timing to start your offense. That's it. The true skill of martial arts is in attack. The fast you apply a threat back the fast you start winning.
So, for my money and experience, immediate protection followed by immediate offense in the most violent (within proper use of force) manner possible to disrupt the attacker OODA loop.
This will look different for each and every person here. For me, that's an immediate cover or interception and at the same time crashing the gap to lay hands on the attacker. Preferably with a body lock where I exert control. Once I'm there, with momentum, I can effect the takedown. Now, Captain Flurry is on his back and while he can still hit me he can do so with little real force and I'm on top with some serious amount of control.
This affords me the ability to do several things, any of which might be the right call given a situation. I can strike, hold and wait for partners, disengage from a position of cover and strength, or exert further control.
Now, if one is more of a striker (and prior to my BJJ time I was in this group as well so I can speak to it as well) that might look more like cutting an angle on an attack and firing my own strike, again focusing on the attack and not the defense. Using body mechanics and footwork to protect ones self while jamming, defanging, or otherwise attacking around the initial assault. Once you've got initiative, it's a straight blast maneuver (or such) from an advantageous angle which continues until he covers. Once his defense is begun, you don't let it end. Ever. Your assault continues until the fight is over.
There are other options that kind of go beyond the initial question, as to escalation of weapons, ect. Also option (and maybe good ones) but beyond the scope of the question. |
I agree here. Close and get hands on them, and try to control. What you don't want to end up doing is trying to backup and block everything. No one is as fast going backwards as someone is going forwards. You also have the added danger of tripping on something you can't see, making your situation even worse. Blocking/deflecting and cutting an angle is a good idea, but do it as soon as possible and close the gap.
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http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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Montana
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 883
Location: Formerly Kalispell, Montana, now Spokane, WA
Styles: Shorin Ryu Matsumura Kenpo & Kobudo
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| tallgeese wrote: |
Yes, get away. In a SD setting we should be talking about escape at this point. Now, what if we have to deal with this.
First, it is common. Second, it is hard to deal with it.
My take, respectfully, is slightly different in dealing with this situation. Defense WILL NOT WIN. Ever. Continually defending will only ensure that you finally catch one. You lose momentum, you lose timing.
From my experience, launching your own offensive as quickly as possible is the key. You might defend out of the gate, but that is ONLY to allow you to adjust timing to start your offense. That's it. The true skill of martial arts is in attack. The fast you apply a threat back the fast you start winning.
So, for my money and experience, immediate protection followed by immediate offense in the most violent (within proper use of force) manner possible to disrupt the attacker OODA loop.
This will look different for each and every person here. For me, that's an immediate cover or interception and at the same time crashing the gap to lay hands on the attacker. Preferably with a body lock where I exert control. Once I'm there, with momentum, I can effect the takedown. Now, Captain Flurry is on his back and while he can still hit me he can do so with little real force and I'm on top with some serious amount of control.
This affords me the ability to do several things, any of which might be the right call given a situation. I can strike, hold and wait for partners, disengage from a position of cover and strength, or exert further control.
Now, if one is more of a striker (and prior to my BJJ time I was in this group as well so I can speak to it as well) that might look more like cutting an angle on an attack and firing my own strike, again focusing on the attack and not the defense. Using body mechanics and footwork to protect ones self while jamming, defanging, or otherwise attacking around the initial assault. Once you've got initiative, it's a straight blast maneuver (or such) from an advantageous angle which continues until he covers. Once his defense is begun, you don't let it end. Ever. Your assault continues until the fight is over.
There are other options that kind of go beyond the initial question, as to escalation of weapons, ect. Also option (and maybe good ones) but beyond the scope of the question. |
I agree with you most of the time tallgeese...but not this time. Shorin Ryu is pretty much a defensive art..meaning we defend, look and create openings and opportunities, then attack..or rather, counter strike the opponent.
Guys that flail their attacks at you and ggressively attack are PERFECT fodder for us.
My way anyway...I'm a very defensive fighter, preferring an aggressive opponent. As always,, this would be much easier to demonstrate than it is to describe...but we can't have everything, right? lol
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If you don't want to stand behind our troops, please..feel free to stand in front of them.
Student since January 1975---4th Dan, retired due to non-martial arts related injuries. |
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cathal
Black Belt
Joined: 20 Nov 2003
Posts: 2237
Location: Atlantic Canada
Styles: Shotokan (Ryukyu Kobujutsu, Iaido)
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:43 am Post subject: |
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I was in a similar situation in a bar up north. I'd had a couple and was approaching the bar when he turned & attacked. It didn't matter who he attacked, he just wanted the satisfaction of overwhelming someone.
| tallgeese wrote: |
| From my experience, launching your own offensive as quickly as possible is the key. You might defend out of the gate, but that is ONLY to allow you to adjust timing to start your offense. That's it. |
I blocked my face and attacked with a forward thrust kick. It connected and he was down. He wasn't able to get back up. After a few moments he was screaming. The fight was over, no one else got hurt, and no one else bothered me in that bar again. As it turns out the kick & fall resulted in just shy of a broken hip.
I was lucky his buddies didn't want to continue the fight, I'd gotten my bell wrung soundly in the first few seconds. The bartender said I'd gotten hit three times before defending myself! Not to mention he and his buddies were all nickel miners, tough men in their own right.
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The best victory is when the opponent surrenders
of its own accord before there are any actual
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on the post.
