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Ueshirokarate
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 15 Jan 2011
Posts: 446

Styles: Matsubayashi, BJJ and a little bit of Judo

PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 6:38 am    Post subject: Defense against grapplers Reply with quote

Anyone spent some time playing with karate techniques for defending against Judo/BJJ take down techniques?
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 1269
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 8:49 am    Post subject: Re: Defense against grapplers Reply with quote

Ueshirokarate wrote:
Anyone spent some time playing with karate techniques for defending against Judo/BJJ take down techniques?


Dropping into shiko-dachi/kiba-dachi definitely help you maintain your balance while grappling and I've used it to stop judo throws before, and shooting a leg back into a long, deep zenkutsu-dachi when they shoot for a double- or single-leg takedown sets you up nicely to roll them. Between that and general skills of deflecting an attacker it works fine for defending against unskilled attackers but it's a little limited for dealing with a skilled grappler--it's always best to train a grappling art to learn how to defend against a grappler.
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Ueshirokarate
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 15 Jan 2011
Posts: 446

Styles: Matsubayashi, BJJ and a little bit of Judo

PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: Defense against grapplers Reply with quote

Wastelander wrote:
Ueshirokarate wrote:
Anyone spent some time playing with karate techniques for defending against Judo/BJJ take down techniques?


Dropping into shiko-dachi/kiba-dachi definitely help you maintain your balance while grappling and I've used it to stop judo throws before, and shooting a leg back into a long, deep zenkutsu-dachi when they shoot for a double- or single-leg takedown sets you up nicely to roll them. Between that and general skills of deflecting an attacker it works fine for defending against unskilled attackers but it's a little limited for dealing with a skilled grappler--it's always best to train a grappling art to learn how to defend against a grappler.


Funny, this is why I took up judo for a while as I wanted to understand a grappling style. I now train in my karate style and BJJ. I have given quite a bit of thought to this subject and I do believe it has given me much deeper insight into kata techniques. In fact, my first line of defense would be exactly what you said above. Although the bunkai for a down-block in zenkutsu-dachi is to block a kick, it is far more effective as a lunge strike or in this case a defense against a grappler trying for a takedown.

My question was more directed to the idea of actually training to defend against these techniques, rather than just studying two arts. Do you drill against throws and other take downs?
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
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Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 1269
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 12:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Defense against grapplers Reply with quote

Ueshirokarate wrote:
Wastelander wrote:
Ueshirokarate wrote:
Anyone spent some time playing with karate techniques for defending against Judo/BJJ take down techniques?


Dropping into shiko-dachi/kiba-dachi definitely help you maintain your balance while grappling and I've used it to stop judo throws before, and shooting a leg back into a long, deep zenkutsu-dachi when they shoot for a double- or single-leg takedown sets you up nicely to roll them. Between that and general skills of deflecting an attacker it works fine for defending against unskilled attackers but it's a little limited for dealing with a skilled grappler--it's always best to train a grappling art to learn how to defend against a grappler.


Funny, this is why I took up judo for a while as I wanted to understand a grappling style. I now train in my karate style and BJJ. I have given quite a bit of thought to this subject and I do believe it has given me much deeper insight into kata techniques. In fact, my first line of defense would be exactly what you said above. Although the bunkai for a down-block in zenkutsu-dachi is to block a kick, it is far more effective as a lunge strike or in this case a defense against a grappler trying for a takedown.

My question was more directed to the idea of actually training to defend against these techniques, rather than just studying two arts. Do you drill against throws and other take downs?


Ah, yes, we do drill against throws and takedowns, but mostly things like front- and rear-suplexes and double- and single-leg takedowns because they are pretty common--anyone who has wrestled understands the ideas behind both, and most football players can pull them off as well. Since I have judo experience and my instructor has jujutsu experience, we do tend to use a lot of other sweeps and throws in our drills but we don't train against them in karate, specifically, because we train against them when we grapple or do MMA-style training.
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Jack Slack
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 18 May 2012
Posts: 10
Location: GB
Styles: Karate, Boxing, BJJ, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most karateka are adept at fighting southpaw, which is an excellent defense against grapplers who fight orthodox.

A quick look at Anderson Silva, Lyoto Machida and Mirko Cro Cop will reveal how much easier it is to stuff a shot from an orthodox fighter against a southpaw.

Most of the time, because of the distance, Anderson and Lyoto's opponents are forced to pick up a single leg rather than their double leg takedown, which of course is much easier to defend.
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MasterPain
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 1887
Location: Parts Unknown
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Psycho Drive and Spanish Ninjitsu

PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 12:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Defense against grapplers Reply with quote

Ueshirokarate wrote:

My question was more directed to the idea of actually training to defend against these techniques, rather than just studying two arts. Do you drill against throws and other take downs?


The trouble with not bringing in the other art is that your uke will not be very good. Someone who has never trained with a decent wrestler can not give you a decent double leg to defend against. Before practicing club disarms, I want my uke to have some degree of competence in some sort of Brain Bashing Jutsu.
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MasterPain
Black Belt
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Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 1887
Location: Parts Unknown
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Psycho Drive and Spanish Ninjitsu

PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jack Slack wrote:
Most karateka are adept at fighting southpaw, which is an excellent defense against grapplers who fight orthodox.

A quick look at Anderson Silva, Lyoto Machida and Mirko Cro Cop will reveal how much easier it is to stuff a shot from an orthodox fighter against a southpaw.

Most of the time, because of the distance, Anderson and Lyoto's opponents are forced to pick up a single leg rather than their double leg takedown, which of course is much easier to defend.


Good point about the open stance. Open and closed stance create very different games.
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ps1
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 2960
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ

PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Learn to sprawl to avoid the shot.

Learn to frame the neck and step back into a zenkutsu dachi to avoid a clinch.

Being skilled at those two things will serve you very well against average takedown artists. The simple fact is you WILL get taken down against above average and elite takedown artists at will unless you take the time to train grappling arts.

If you're only concerned with takedowns, take wrestling. Judo rules do not allow leg attacks as primary moves anymore and will give you very little skill in stopping a wrestler (which is a hugely popular sport in the US. )
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sensei8
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 7847
Location: Owasso, OK and Van Nuys, CA
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Live and with an unwilling uke; these are how Shindokanists practice againt Judo/BJJ like attacks...over and over and over and..., in anyway possible. I want my uke to try to kill me, otherwise, a compliant uke won't reveal my weaknesses, on the same hand, a fighting uke will, imho.

We try to train with those practitioner types, Judo/BJJ, outside of the dojo's/Hombu as much as we can. To know your opponent means to understand your opponent and their vices and the like.


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tallgeese
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 5815
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, BJJ, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll second what's been said above once, the best way to defeat grappling attacks (takedowns too) is to learn to grapple. ps1 give solid advice to the tactics, the best way to learn these is by studying a grappling style. As MP stated, if your partner does not have an adequate understanding of said takedown (or grappling tactics) they can't give you a good feed.

To do well against a grappler, you have to train to be one.
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