Gung-Fu? Wing Chun?

Johnlogic121 · Orange Belt

As a Grandmaster, I have contributed four striking katas to Bujinkan Ninjutsu. I intend to create a total of sixteen. I am also working on the first of fifteen weapons forms for that style. I submit my material to Mr. David Heald, who has distributed it to the Genbukan Ninjutsu organization as well as the Stephan Hayes training groups as well. Ninjutsu is a good system that teaches effective grappling moves from a standing position that cause subdual immobilizations and restraints against the opponent. The style takes years for a great deal of capturing skill to be developed, but the dojos maintain a very good 'martial spirit' in their training culture and thus most dojos tend to trreat each other like family or at least close friends. If you want to learn to fight effectively in a shorter period of time, I would recommend a Wing Chun school. Wing Chun can be mastered satisfactorily in a year's time. However, Ninjutsu will expose you to many more weapons than Wing Chun, and many people like weapons training. If I were you, I would not be concerned about whether or not the Bujinkan can trace a 900 year legacy back to the days of the ancient Ninja warriors. In the modern world, Ninjutsu is a dominant system that resembles Japanese jujutsu 70% of the time but it also contains deadly counters to some of the worlds most common martial arts. I can think of counters to roundhouse kicks from Ninjusu that will hyperextend the kicker's knee before smashing his face and counters to Judo throws that will break the Judo man's neck after defeating his throwing attempt. Undoubtedly, Ninjutsu is one of the best styles in the world, and was even used at one point by the Marine Corps Martial Arts Center for Excellance as a base discipline for their fighting arts. This was soon after Congress decreed that Marines should be martial artists as well as riflemen. Ninjutsu rarely dissappoints.
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First Grandmaster - Montgomery Style Karate; 12 year Practitioner - Bujinkan Style Ninjutsu; Isshinryu, Judo, Mang Chaun Kung Fu, Kempo

NightOwl · KF Sempai

Bruce Lee did study kung fu- a major selling point for wing chun (which I have briefly studied). However what most people forget is that he rejected his traditional kung fu training and didn't think very highly of it. I'm not saying that to mean kung fu is useless- but if you wanted to train like Bruce lee (as you mentioned him studying kung fu) then JKD or a similar style would be closer to what you are looking for.

What techniques would be used for hyper extending a knee during a kick while smashing the face/ throw counter that wouldn't be found in judo?
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Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.

~Theodore Roosevelt

Johnlogic121 · Orange Belt

Here are two Ninjutsu techniques, as requested. Neither appear in Judo.
Defense against the roundhouse kick to the head:
Dodge in the same direction as the leg is kicking and step inwards towards the opponent. Thus, you are moving in at a diagonal angle. If the kick is coming in from the left, you move to the right; if the kick is coming in from the right, you move to the left. At the end of your dodging motion you turn to face the knee and punch it squarely with the fist that is on the opposite side of your body as you rotate from the hips on down. Thus, if the kick is coming in from the left side, you use the right fist; otherwise, you use the left fist. The torso rotates slightly too. The technique is designed to put pressure on the kneecap of the kicker's leg right at the moment he is making full extension with his roundhouse kicking attempt. The end result is that the leg is hyperextended easily. To continue the technique, you use your other hand to smash the face. The intense pain of the leg hyperextension maks smashing the face somewhat easy. Be very careful if you practice this, because hyperextending the knee joint is incredibly easy.
Defense against a Judo hip throw (or just about any Judo throw):
As the opponent comes in to lower his hips below yours, free your left hand from its grab on his right arm and put your left palm upon the area of the thrower's back by his kidney. What you are doing is jamming his throwing attempt by putting your hand as a barrier so that he can not get his hips under yours. This stops almost all Judo throws very easily. Then, you either go for the hands that he has on your clothing and twist his wrist to break his wrist (as a nonlethal variation) or you put both hands beside his neck for the neck break. The left hand makes a fist with the thumb joint on top, and this thumb joint goes into the caratid artery and the right hand makes a schuto (knifehand) and chops simultaneously against the right side of the neck with the palm down. The neck break is called a "Hammer and Anvil" because you are crushing him with both hands. This works against almost all Judo throws. Be careful if you practice this, because damaging your partner with this technique can be very easy.
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First Grandmaster - Montgomery Style Karate; 12 year Practitioner - Bujinkan Style Ninjutsu; Isshinryu, Judo, Mang Chaun Kung Fu, Kempo

NightOwl · KF Sempai

That wouldn't hyperextend the leg- you'd have to actually extend the leg beyond normal to do that. I've yet to see a punch (rather than a catch) work to stop a full speed kick.

For the Judo defense throw, it isn't going to help if you brace against their kidney- he's going down, not up. Also the human hips are much much stronger than anything you could do with your arms- hence the reliance on them for ground fighting. Also it doesn't address the other types of throws which have a completely different setup. As for the neck break- that would hurt but it wouldn't nearly have enough force to break the neck. Not to mention, opening both your arms up like that would leave your center line (to borrow a wing chun term) open up to pretty much anything.
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Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.

~Theodore Roosevelt

Johnlogic121 · Orange Belt

The techniques I shared were introduced by Doctor Hatsumi. I must insist that both work exceedlingly well. Perhaps I haven't described the techniques accurately enough, but I have confidence they work as a Grandmaster in my own right. The roundhouse defense hits the kneecap squarely head on at the instant the leg is reaching full extension, so the natural result is a hyperextension of the knee joint and thus a badly disabled leg. Smashing the face almost isn't needed at that point. As for the Judo defense, this will defend against almost all of the 67 Judo throws because the Judo man can't get his hips even close to yours when your palm is jamming his kidney. There is not even a need to strike with the palm as you are simply keeping his hips away from you and he can't get them under yours. Your remark is critical about protecting the centerline, but since we are talking about a Judo throw, the attacker's back is towards you and thus your centerline is in no danger. The hammer and anvil neck break will break a neck more easily than either part done by itself separately as the conjoined force is highly damaging to the compressed vertebrae. I would like to respond more precisely to your post, but I didn't understand all of your objections clearly.
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First Grandmaster - Montgomery Style Karate; 12 year Practitioner - Bujinkan Style Ninjutsu; Isshinryu, Judo, Mang Chaun Kung Fu, Kempo

NightOwl · KF Sempai

So let me get this straight- you are essentially pushing on his back? This would not help you my friend (plus, every heard of osotogari or hizaguruma?). Anyone who does grappling will tell you that a good way to avoid hip throws is to lower your hips. Please feel free to go to your local judo tournament and try though.

You mention that these counterattacks work very well- have you ever used it against a kickboxer? A Thai boxer? People whose entire art deals with punching and kicking do not punch to the knee as a good target to focus on. To do damage to the knee with a punch (even extended) you need a good solid amount of power. The fact that a kick would limit your punching space would decrease the needed power even more.

The human body is stronger then you give it credit for.
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Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.

~Theodore Roosevelt

ying&yang · Purple Belt

Yes this is true , and is why i emphasis the fact that you should continue to develope your minds with information about many styles.
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I think that there is no 1 style , and that to truly become a great martial artist and person you must take information from where ever you can.

Throwdown0850 · Blue Belt

jamming the kidney may not work always, because of my most favorite technique of Kodokan, the Osoto Gari.. also, if your hand is on my kidney I can still use my legs to sweep.. or just turn a little on the spot and perform the Uchi mata.. people have tried it on me in tournaments and I did the ouchi gari everytime.. well expept backwards.. its more like a reverse ouchi gari that is also a sacrifice throw..

or just lower my hips, one of the first things you would learn on counter throwing in Randori..
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You must become more than just a man in the mind of your opponent. -Henri Ducard

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