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Ebureto
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 18 May 2011
Posts: 5
Location: Brainerd, MN
Styles: Shorin-ryu Matsumura Kenpo Karate & Kobudo, Krabi Krabong

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

George alexander's Hohan Soken, life of a grandmaster allegedly shows part of the hakutsuru kate, but without Master Soken, or Fusei Kise to confirm it's; authenticity, it's probably just a hoax.

This is an old thread, I know, but I just recently became a member of this list. Sorry.

Anyway, some years ago after Kuda Yuichi-sensei (founder of Shorin-ryu Matsumura Kenpo and an old dojo-mate of Kise Fusei in both Nakamura and Soken's organizations) passed, his son Tomosada took up the mantle of Kaicho and continued training us in his father's stead. I have been fortunate enough to spend a fair amount of time with him during his US visits and once for three weeks on Okinawa... anyway, one of the many things we have touched on on numerous occasions is this whole "hakutsuru" thing. I showed him some of my collected hakutsuru video footage from various Americans teaching it here in the US, and his only reply was (whether it's from Alexander, Sandoval, Lindsey, or Chandler) "Maybe someone's Hakutsuru, but no Soken's". This was more or less verified when Tomosada-sensei introduced me to Nishihira Kosei (Soken's nephew and probable inheritor) who offered an impromptu demonstration and lecture.
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Montana
Brown Belt
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Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 634
Location: Formerly Montana, now Spokane, WA
Styles: Shorin Ryu Matsumura Kenpo & Kobudo

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing you need to keep in mind is that the sensei that you listed trained primarily with Sensei Kise, not Sensei Kuda, and Kise has his own way of doing things a lot of the time.

Which was more accuraqte way of doing the Hakusura kata...beats me! lol Personally, I would lean towards Sensei Lindsey as being the most accurate, but that's just an opinion.
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Ebureto
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 18 May 2011
Posts: 5
Location: Brainerd, MN
Styles: Shorin-ryu Matsumura Kenpo Karate & Kobudo, Krabi Krabong

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montana wrote:
The thing you need to keep in mind is that the sensei that you listed trained primarily with Sensei Kise, not Sensei Kuda, and Kise has his own way of doing things a lot of the time.

Which was more accuraqte way of doing the Hakusura kata...beats me! lol Personally, I would lean towards Sensei Lindsey as being the most accurate, but that's just an opinion.


I concur with your former point...

Although, at the risk of sounding like I know more than I do, I was one of those "hakutsuru chasers" in the '90s who followed Tony Sandoval around after an introduction made by Chuck Chandler, and the subsequent "hakutsuru" material that I later saw Mr. Lindsey present resembled an altered version of what Mr. Sandoval was teaching. Mr. Sandoval had other things to say about that as well. That being said, after consulting with Kuda Tomosada-sensei (and having a brief conversation with Nihsihira Kosei... through Tomo-sensei...during my first visit to Okinawa), it's become apparent that certain crane forms that Mr. Sandoval had been teaching "May be someone's hakutsuru, but not Soken's".

That all being said, two things: 1) I am strongly opinioned that no one out there in this country has Soken's hakutsuru, unless something has changed since speaking with these two Okinawan gentlemen, and 2) as Yuichi Kuda-sensei and Nishihira-sensei both said, in different ways and on different occasions, (obviously I'm paraphrasing) if you understand all the concepts in the other Matsumura kata, then you understand hakutsuru.

It may very well be that Mr. Lindsey and others have valid crane techniques from various sources, but as previously mentioned, I find it highly doubtful (based on the word of two Okinawan masters I trust implicitly) that any American has the whole enchilada. Kuda-O'sensei may even have been more direct in his position on this, but I'm not privy to those had they been said.

In closing, I'll say that, in regards to Mr. Lindsey, no one can take away his skill and dedication to Shorin-ryu. When Greg Ohl hosted him up here in MN back in about 1980, he seriously cleaned house on two very rough and tumble black belts at the same time during a demonstration shiai.
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Ebureto
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 18 May 2011
Posts: 5
Location: Brainerd, MN
Styles: Shorin-ryu Matsumura Kenpo Karate & Kobudo, Krabi Krabong

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I should have re-read my previous post... appears I've been redundant.
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Montana
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 634
Location: Formerly Montana, now Spokane, WA
Styles: Shorin Ryu Matsumura Kenpo & Kobudo

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dineshm wrote:
P.A.L wrote:
dineshm wrote:
People can 'claim' to teach the matsumura hakutsuru, like this guy.
http://www.amazon.com/Hakutsuru-Secret-White-George-Alexander/dp/B00007MEYT

The question is, how many actually know the Matsumura Family Hakutsuru? I'm guessing 1.(or 2?).


so tell us what you know about it.

What I know about it?
Not much. Only that it's supposed to be a family style. A family style isn't usually taught to everyone.
George alexander's Hohan Soken, life of a grandmaster allegedly shows part of the hakutsuru kate, but without Master Soken, or Fusei Kise to confirm it's; authenticity, it's probably just a hoax.


I would be VERY careful about anything pertaining to George Alexander. He is an avid self-promoter. I bought, and promtly returned several of his kata tapes that I was going to let my students borrow for home study.

In a nutshell, they were terrible and very inaccurate. I spoke to Mr. Alexander when I was trying to return the tapes and he was rude and accused me of making copies. I advised him that I had no interest in making copies of katas that were inaccurate and of very low quality.

Needless to say, he didn't like that much.
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