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saishu
Yellow Belt
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 38
Location: Ft. Dix NJ
Styles: Saishu Ryu Karate Jitsu / Kodokan Judo / Shotokan Karate / Shorinji Ryu / Orthodox Matsumura Shorin Ryu / TKD / Japanese Jujitsu
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 Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:34 pm Post subject: Hakutsuru Kata |
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Okay I have had a couple people write me messages asking about the Hakutsuru kata. I am just wondering if anyone can put in their two cents in about the mysticism surrounding this kata. I have had people tell me that there is no way that I could know this kata, however I have known it for about 5 years. Up until a few days ago I didn't think it was a big deal.
Could someone please shed some light on this whole issue for me. Because to me Hakutsuru is just another kata. So what if it was made by Bushi Matsumura. You can buy videos of Hohan Soken performing this kata for goodness sake.
If anyone is unfamiliar with this kata you can see it here - SaishuRyu Website. This video is of Saishu Ryu founder Scot Mertz performing Hakutsuru, but his version of this kata is the same one that i learned.
Tomo
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Tomo Kagawa
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www.saishuryu.com |
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Zaine
Black Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2279
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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Well, its a kata, its no big deal. All i can say is that if Bushi made it that just one more thing he made. Its not like he wanted to keep it secret or something. But the big deal about it is that supposedly only Fusei Kise knows this kata.
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Martial arts training is 30% classroom training, 70% solo training.
https://www.instagram.com/nordic_karate/ |
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24fightingchickens
Orange Belt
Joined: 27 Aug 2005
Posts: 147
Styles: Shotokan
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saishu
Yellow Belt
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 38
Location: Ft. Dix NJ
Styles: Saishu Ryu Karate Jitsu / Kodokan Judo / Shotokan Karate / Shorinji Ryu / Orthodox Matsumura Shorin Ryu / TKD / Japanese Jujitsu
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| Zaine wrote: |
| Well, its a kata, its no big deal. All i can say is that if Bushi made it that just one more thing he made. Its not like he wanted to keep it secret or something. But the big deal about it is that supposedly only Fusei Kise knows this kata. |
You know I have heard that as well. But I attended a Ken Penland seminar and all we did was the Hakutsuru Kata. I have heard that Kise was suppose to be the only one who knew it, but if that is the case why can you buy videos of Hohan Soken performing it? Or is there a possibility that the one Kise knows is like Hakutsuru Ni or something?
Oh well.
Tomo 
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Tomo Kagawa
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www.saishuryu.com |
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P.A.L
Black Belt
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1263
Location: Texas
Styles: Shorin-ryu
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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according to some history( right or wrong) Matsumura only teaches hakutsuru kata to Nabe, Hohen Soken version of hakutsuru is Hakutsuru dai which probebly comes from Nabe, there are many Hakutsuru katas from different families , most famouse is GoKenki, i only know three kata with "Hakutsuru" as part of actual name,
Matsumura Hakutsuru sho
Matsumura hakutsuru dai
umi Inagu shihe Hakutsutu
these are some of other white crane katas we practice
Shorinji Sanchin Five Ancestral Fist
So Hakutsuru Fukein White Crane
Tan Hakutsuru Fukein White Crane
Ni Ju Ken Five Ancestral Fist
Shu Hakutsuru Ancestral Crane
Rokishu Fuken White Crane
Ryushoken Hohan Soken
Matsumura Hakutsuru Sho Matsumura Family
Matsumura Hakutsuru Chu Matsumura Family
Shorinji Chinto Five Ancestral Fist
Matsumura Hakutsuru Dai Matsumura Family
Mei Hakutsuru Shouting White Crane
Hitsuru ken
shutsuru Ken
Paihok
tsuru sanchin
these are all open hand hakutsuru katas , all the katas with the name Hakutsuru(that i am aware of) start with some move like opening of Kusanku dai. main thing about Hakutsuru is high stances , most of them are natural fighting stances, shiko dachi when power drops for a break or stealing balance , naihanchi when power goes up for eye strike, kicks are low and fast ,mostly in pairs using big toe,
Last edited by P.A.L on Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zaine
Black Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2279
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| saishu wrote: |
| Zaine wrote: |
| Well, its a kata, its no big deal. All i can say is that if Bushi made it that just one more thing he made. Its not like he wanted to keep it secret or something. But the big deal about it is that supposedly only Fusei Kise knows this kata. |
You know I have heard that as well. But I attended a Ken Penland seminar and all we did was the Hakutsuru Kata. I have heard that Kise was suppose to be the only one who knew it, but if that is the case why can you buy videos of Hohan Soken performing it? Or is there a possibility that the one Kise knows is like Hakutsuru Ni or something?
Oh well.
Tomo |
That would probally explain it, there are different ways to do a kata depending on who learned it, people probally just freaked out because they though you ment a certain Hakutsuru. Its no big deal though. But to learn it from this Ken Penland in a seminar is bad unless it was a black belt seminar. You see, in my system Crane katas such as Lotan bet and Lotan Alef a.k.a Chinto 1and 2 are learned after 2nd degree. That is bad if you teach so many people a White Crane form so early in there training, its just bad teaching.
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Martial arts training is 30% classroom training, 70% solo training.
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Skeptic 2004
Orange Belt
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 214
Location: Okinawa
Styles: Shorin-Ryu
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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According to Chibana Chosin, many of the Hakutsuru kata in Okinawa were originally based on Hakutsuru no Mai, a traditional dance. I'm presuming that Bushi Matsumura was watching this dance one day and said, "I bet if you do this...and then do this...you can apply it to fighting!" and then proceeded to create the Matsumura Hakutsuru katas listed above.
This shouldn't surprise you if you've ever watched traditional Okinawan dance - it's just like traditional karate kata with fighting moves and the like, only more ornate.
Unfortunately, Chibana Chosin said that Hakutsuru in general were not really "fighting" kata. They were appropriate for developing posture, coordination, and breathing timing; but if you wanted to do all that and have a good "exercise" kata, there's an easier kata one could learn - Jutte.
Having been taught the Hakutsuru kata (the So, Tan, San Hi, and Matsumura Hakutsuru Sho), and training them, I can see Chibana's point. There are fighting applications to the kata, but they are far and few in between. Even watching John Sells's Hakutsuru videos (quite excellent videos by the way) where he demonstrates the meaning of the moves, I'm hard pressed to believe that those tools could readily be applied in a fighting situation.
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Zaine
Black Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2279
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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Very excellent point Skeptic. I have seen other times where that has happen i.e. flag dancers and bo forms, drummers and escrima fighters.
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Martial arts training is 30% classroom training, 70% solo training.
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Zaine
Black Belt
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2279
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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Oh yeah, one more thing, it Hakusturu started with Nabe Matusumura
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Martial arts training is 30% classroom training, 70% solo training.
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samertz
White Belt
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 5
Location: Maryland
Styles: Saishu Ryu
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:49 am Post subject: |
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PAL is right. There are many many versions of Hakutsuru out there. The one that we (Saishu Ryu) practice is the one from Seito Shorin Ryu. It's not the full out Hakutsuru that Hanshi Kise knows.
If you get a chance to see the Saishu Ryu 2006 guide you will see that we are actually practicing a lot of different crane kata, especially in the Dan levels.
Tomo if you want to talk more about this please don't post this stuff in these types of forums, either e-mail me or talk to Eric Whitsell.
Scot |
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on the post.
