|
|
| Author |
Message |
IcemanSK
Black Belt
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 1084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Styles: Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan
|
 Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:22 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| JR 137 wrote: |
I think after 6th or 7th dan many traditional schools don't have a physical test for rank; it's merit based. Or perhaps better put, the rank is reflective of what the practitioner has contributed to the art or advanced the art or arts in general.
What's wrong with merit based dan promotion when the practitioner is very high rank before the promotion? If they're at this point, they've proven time and again that they're worthy from a technique perspective. Are they learning new material such as kata, joint locks, strategy, etc. that they must demonstrate functional knowledge of? Or are they refining and furthering what they've learned at rep latively speaking lower ranks?
Add to all of that a very high ranked practitioner is usually advanced in age. Are the physical skills of an 80 year old man as sharp and crisp as they were when he was 30, 40, 50, etc.?
I agree with a lot of what's already been said. Perhaps my points aren't in the spirit of what was truly being asked in the OP. However, after a certain point of mastery, it's about what you've done to advance the art, not what you're physically capable of. Does a person truly need another physical exam after they've proven themselves physically worthy over the course of several decades? How much better do you expect an 8th dan to be at punching or kicking than a 7th dan? If they're not as sharp physically, do they fail the test and are asked to try again later on?
Then there's post-humous promotions.
Again, probably not the original intent of the thread, but being promoted without a test has its place sometimes. |
It's funny that you should bring up the idea of senior citizens being promoted past their physical ability. On another board, I posted about giving BBs to those with disabilities. My idea was/is that we all have a "standard" of what a technique should be until we age to the point that that one talented 17 year year old with limitless energy has a better side kick (or whatever technique) that is better than our own.
Yeah, your response isn't quite where I was going, but it's okay. I can only speak for Kukki-Taekwondo as for what is officially written down. In order to test for 8th & 9th Dan Kukkiwon, one must go to Korea and test at Kukkiwon itself. One can be given posthumous rank, but it's only the rank up from where one was at time of their death. 10th Dan Kukkiwon is only a posthumous rank, and therefore honorary. It has only been given to a small number of people (I believe less than 20). My late grandmaster (Edward B. Sell) was given than honor after his death last year.
There are many stories of people passed over for rank that should have received it, but didn't for whatever reason. GM Keiko Fukuda (the last remaining student of Judo founder Jigoro Kano) was awarded 10th Dan shortly before her death at 99 years old in 2013. Because she was a woman, it was seen for many years that she should not be given rank above 5th Dan. So she remained that rank for far longer than she should have. Politics in MA are awful!
_________________
Being a good fighter is One thing. Being a good person is Everything. Kevin "Superkick" McClinton |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I guess the question is at old age are they being graded as a fighter or as a martial artist? The physical skills that they've proven time and again, or their lifelong contribution (and participation in) to the arts? Kind of like a lifetime achievement award. There's no right or wrong answer, unless there was zero thought put behind it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2733
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I haven't, but my instructor has. He was given a Godan certificate several years ago by a man he highly respected, and did train with periodically, so he accepted the certificate and keeps it at home. He does not claim that rank, though, because he wasn't tested for it, and because it is for another style--albeit, one that he earned Shodan in before he switched to Shorin-Ryu. He just keeps it as a kind of momento from a mentor.
_________________
Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Montana
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 882
Location: Formerly Kalispell, Montana, now Spokane, WA
Styles: Shorin Ryu Matsumura Kenpo & Kobudo
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
In my branch of Shorin Ryu anyway, anything above 7th Dan is honorary. As long as they strive to get better, Both in the art and themselves.
_________________
If you don't want to stand behind our troops, please..feel free to stand in front of them.
Student since January 1975---4th Dan, retired due to non-martial arts related injuries. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yes, once.
One of my students came from and was still learning Hapkido. He asked me to join him for a seminar that the Grand Master was giving.
I decided to go with him and gave him money to buy my ticket. He had shown me techniques and I found that they had similarities with Tuite (Chin-Na/Qin-Na) that we teach so I was intrigued.
Long story short I was paired up with one of his senior students and was more than able to handle my own. At the end of the seminar they called all who were in attendance to receive a certificate stating that they had taken the seminar. When he came to me he handed me the certificate and asked me to stay after because he wished to speak to me.
I did so and he started by asking me why an Okinawan practitioner would come to his seminar. I explained that the young man waiting for me was one of my students and he had invited me. Then he went over to the table and picked up a paper and returned and presented me with a 5th degree certificate in Hapkido. I respectfully declined and explained that although some of our techniques where similar I had never taken a day of Hapkido and could not in good conscience accept.
Needless to say I was never invited back. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Focused Mind
White Belt
Joined: 23 Aug 2016
Posts: 18
Styles: WadoKai
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Spartacus Maximus wrote: |
Handing out Dan ranks and certificates without any sort of evaluation is part of martial arts politics. It exists everywhere martial arts governing bodies are present. Even the cradle of martial arts are not spared by this ego-inflating practice. It is not unheard of for the head of a governing body to offer such promotion for others to join them.
A friend who had earned a 3rd dan was offered a 5th Dan if he agreed to join an organization other than the one he had earned the 3rd Dan. He refused without a second thought and was right to do so.
A dan grade represents the formal recognition of training effort by one's teacher. This is far more important than the material symbols of belts and certificates or the artificial prestige these might give.
Respect and honour towards oneself, one's teacher and the efforts of both must prevail over these sorts of trivial pursuits. After alll at the end, what matters is the skills one knows one has and these are within the man, not a piece of fancy cloth or paper. |
I think this shows a corrupt system; giving rank for joining another organisation. I'm glad your friend rejected this attempt - this is poor for the Sensei to do.
I like to think that I have worked very hard for my grades.
I have never been offered a higher rank than what I graded for. If I was, I'd decline. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 687
Location: Central Maine
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| sensei8 wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
Nope; not me!!
 |
WAIT...yes I have!! My Kudan; it was offered to me by our Hombu when I was voted to be the current Kaicho. I believe that I've written about how it came about here at KF...
http://www.karateforums.com/a-testing-that-i-ve-never-wanted-vt45133.html
There might be other posts I've written speaking about this darn thing. Dai-Soke understood why I refused to comply to what's written in our By-Laws. So much so that he told the Hombu to back off. They did, but they continued to press me shortly after Dai-Soke passed away...our Hombu was trying to force me to accept the Kudan per our By-Laws, but I refused them time and time again until I tried to call their bluff by telling them to test me...and they did...my bluff backfired.
 |
sensei8 will not be voluntold.
Again, not sure if my opinion is valid, but I offer it anyway.
I do not mind when long standing, contributing, members of a group are awarded higher ranks without testing. That being said, they should have mastered the skills, spirit, and ethics of the group to reach mastery. Beyond mastery where new skills, techniques, etc. are not typically taught then the award should be based on contribution (leadership, promoting, management, etc.) It could be by being a great example, or by promoting the art to such a degree that there is cultural impact. This could be to someone like Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, Fumio Demura, etc. Their lives were huge inspirations to many thousands of people both in and out of MA and they helped break down cultural barriers in a time where it was very difficult. If someone down the road decided to promote Chuck Norris another Dan or 2 in TKD, I would find that acceptable and probably deserved. If someone decided to promote him in Wing Chung, then I might question that.
I do not believe that one should promote themselves at all or use someone to promote their own fiefdom. In the case of someone starting their own organization they should just stick with plain old black belt for life. To me it is a mark of humility and art promotion rather than self-promotion. The MA or any group really should be bigger than the individuals leading or founding it.
_________________
"Those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know." ~ Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching
"Walk a single path, becoming neither cocky with victory nor broken with defeat, without forgetting caution when all is quiet or becoming frightened when danger threatens." ~ Jigaro Kano |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1902
Styles: Shorin ryu
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The very fact that this sort of thing happens is a testament to how much ranks on martial arts are political. No martial arts association or governing body of any size is free of this practice. People are offered honorary or full ranks for a variety of reasons.
Even in Okinawa, it has been known to happen and it is more common there than what one could be led to believe. Rival governing bodies, often for the same "style" will try to get members from others to join by offering them rank if they do. The ones who do this are often the head of governing bodies. From recent memory, a sandan and a nidan were offered no less than yondan and shihan teaching title with 5dan, no less. All without any evaluation or testing whatsoever. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Higher ranks are often given to those that are worthy based on knowledge, years of service to the organization and contribution to the art.
Some arts stop testing for rank after Godan, Rokudan or Nanadan. You can request to be tested but it is but a formality and this is more or less to satisfy the recipient and not the board as the decision is already made.
This is somewhat common place within the arts. The problem as I see it is not so much Kodansha receiving rank but giving rank to those undeserving to get them to switch associations/organizations or to trade rank as is often the case with some arts.
If you have been studying for years/centuries and have proven yourself, the board or organization head has every right to promote you based on your merits passed a certain rank/grade (Godan, Rokudan, Nanadan, Hachidan). Giving someone a rank that has never even stepped foot on your Dojo floor just to get them to change organizations or as a bribe to give you rank in their art IMHO is disgraceful. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16420
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
Higher ranks are often given to those that are worthy based on knowledge, years of service to the organization and contribution to the art.
Some arts stop testing for rank after Godan, Rokudan or Nanadan. You can request to be tested but it is but a formality and this is more or less to satisfy the recipient and not the board as the decision is already made.
This is somewhat common place within the arts. The problem as I see it is not so much Kodansha receiving rank but giving rank to those undeserving to get them to switch associations/organizations or to trade rank as is often the case with some arts.
If you have been studying for years/centuries and have proven yourself, the board or organization head has every right to promote you based on your merits passed a certain rank/grade (Godan, Rokudan, Nanadan, Hachidan). Giving someone a rank that has never even stepped foot on your Dojo floor just to get them to change organizations or as a bribe to give you rank in their art IMHO is disgraceful. |
I suppose that that's how my Kudan came about. I refused the promotion over and over and over, even though our By-Laws states that whomever is elected to Kaicho, that individual will be promoted to the rank of Kudan.
I didn't like that, I still don't like it, and I refused to accept Kudan because of some rule in our By-Laws, repeatedly. Even my Dai-Soke spoke with me about this very same thing, and after we had talked, he understood my reasons, even though he didn't agree with them all, he told everyone to leave me alone.
So, perhaps my Kudan was already decided upon way back, and under the guise of a Testing Cycle, one that I demanded, they awarded me my Kudan. Again, in my heart of hearts, I'm Hachidan, and I'm content with that.
In Shindokan, all ranks up to, and including Hachidan, are tested for their ranks, in both karate-do and kobudo. Only Kudan and Judan are awarded through the auspices of our By-Laws. And I still believe, so was MY Kudan!!
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
on the post.
