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Wado Heretic
Green Belt
Joined: 23 May 2014
Posts: 497
Location: United Kingdom
Styles: Wado-Ryu , Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu (Kodokan), RyuKyu Kobojutsu
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 Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:32 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for the words of encouragement. I would state that I do not take their criticism seriously; I just offered it as an example where people have called my karate "fake" and the fact you cannot let it get to you. These days I just say I do Karate, but use the kata of Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu, because it eliminates expectations.
I would estimate my karate to be around 60% Shorin-Ryu based on the fact I use the kata and the kihon-waza. Then 10-15% Wado-Ryu due to kihon-waza I use and my use of Gyakunage Kata, Tantodori no Kata, and Idori no Kata. I incorporate most of the Judo Katamewaza, barring those that rely on the jacket or I consider too "loose" for use outside Judo, and Kōdōkan Goshin Jutsu Kata. The remainder is made up of what I consider kick-boxing essentials, and some drills of my own invention based on my kick-boxing experience. Aside from that there is some self-taught leg wrestling, and some neck-cranks, that I have road tested through competition and sparring, and grappling fundamentals such as sprawling and the technical stand up.
So their argument does have the merit in that I use a lot of material from outside conventional Shorin-Ryu, that you definitely will not see in dojo in Okinawa. With that said; 50% of my practice, and what I teach is kata based, and thus the majority of what we do is derived from the tradition of Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu. That being my counter to their argument.
_________________
R. Keith Williams |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Wado Heretic wrote: |
Thank you for the words of encouragement. I would state that I do not take their criticism seriously; I just offered it as an example where people have called my karate "fake" and the fact you cannot let it get to you. These days I just say I do Karate, but use the kata of Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu, because it eliminates expectations.
I would estimate my karate to be around 60% Shorin-Ryu based on the fact I use the kata and the kihon-waza. Then 10-15% Wado-Ryu due to kihon-waza I use and my use of Gyakunage Kata, Tantodori no Kata, and Idori no Kata. I incorporate most of the Judo Katamewaza, barring those that rely on the jacket or I consider too "loose" for use outside Judo, and Kōdōkan Goshin Jutsu Kata. The remainder is made up of what I consider kick-boxing essentials, and some drills of my own invention based on my kick-boxing experience. Aside from that there is some self-taught leg wrestling, and some neck-cranks, that I have road tested through competition and sparring, and grappling fundamentals such as sprawling and the technical stand up.
So their argument does have the merit in that I use a lot of material from outside conventional Shorin-Ryu, that you definitely will not see in dojo in Okinawa. With that said; 50% of my practice, and what I teach is kata based, and thus the majority of what we do is derived from the tradition of Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu. That being my counter to their argument. |
As I said I am an extreme traditionalist in terms of old school and years ago I would have told you that your art was not traditional in the terms of how you teach it. However there has been a surge in instructors trying to get back to the old school roots and discover the original intent of the Kata and most are utilizing what is readily available to them as the old ways were lost.
Over the years I have come to realize that incorporating Jujutsu, Judo and other grappling arts is due to the fact that they can not find the original Tegumi techniques and applications and this has become a substitute.
If the reason that you and others do this is to give your students a more well rounded method to deal with the different levels of combat I will not berate you for your efforts but instead commend you for it.
It's unfortunate that so many arts lost the original intent (combat) while transitioning to the now accepted modern methods of teaching the arts. However I commend any instructor trying to give their students knowledge that can and will help them to deal with today's scenarios. God knows the grappling craze is the latest and greatest. Why would you not want to teach them something that addresses this?
That and for a traditionalist like me you seem to place the main importance on the Kata which is were my heart lies.
Do you utilize the Kata for teaching your students to Fight/Defend themselves? Due you teach the applications (Bunkai)?
If you do you are probably more "traditional" than most. |
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Wado Heretic
Green Belt
Joined: 23 May 2014
Posts: 497
Location: United Kingdom
Styles: Wado-Ryu , Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu (Kodokan), RyuKyu Kobojutsu
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:32 am Post subject: |
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Yes; the kata are the primary source for self-defence practice, and I place emphasis on people learning the process of Bunkai, as well as teaching "applications". My approach is for applications to be mechanisms of learning flexible principles, and ideas. I tend to see what I teach in addition as an "alphabet" of sorts; a way of understanding the language of kata.
Edit: I would add that what I have taken from Wado-Ryu and elsewhere, I do adapt and experiment with to make fit the "Shorin-Ryu" paradigm. I do not just lift what I like and throw it into a syllabus; it has to pass pressure testing, and fit the big picture, before I consider it something to be taught.
_________________
R. Keith Williams |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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If I'm doing it, it's real karate. If I'm not doing it, it's fake karate 
In all seriousness, far too many people think what they're doing is right and everyone else is wrong. If it addresses your needs, it's real karate. If it doesn't, it's someone else's real karate.
To paraphrase Ed Parker, when fist meets flesh, it's real karate (I added the "real" in there). |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16420
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:03 am Post subject: |
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Traditional has its merits, however, non-traditional training across the board, also has its merits. As much as I'm a strict traditionalist across the board, I'm aware that there's more than one way to skin a cat. Thereby, I skin the cat as often as I feel it's necessary!!
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
Traditional has its merits, however, non-traditional training across the board, also has its merits. As much as I'm a strict traditionalist across the board, I'm aware that there's more than one way to skin a cat. Thereby, I skin the cat as often as I feel it's necessary!!
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Why are you skinning cats? Do you have something against them? What did they ever do to you? |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16420
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| JR 137 wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
Traditional has its merits, however, non-traditional training across the board, also has its merits. As much as I'm a strict traditionalist across the board, I'm aware that there's more than one way to skin a cat. Thereby, I skin the cat as often as I feel it's necessary!!
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Why are you skinning cats? Do you have something against them? What did they ever do to you? |
ROFL 
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| Why are you skinning cats? |
I have to do something in my spare time! 
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| Do you have something against them? |
No...I tolerate them both with as much fortitude as I can possibly extend towards them. I'm a dog person.
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| What did they ever do to you? |
The list is both long and distinguished! They do what cats do, and for my wife, I've demonstrated a long standing affable acceptance!!
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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All instructors have a different approach to teaching, and students have different approaches to learning. Some people like the drill-sergeant style instructors, and some don't. That doesn't make one style any more real or fake than the other.
You mentioned the stress factor of training. If you don't enjoy training, then you probably won't do it. At the same time, you don't want to be pampered to the point that your training won't be effective.
It sounds to me that what you have at your school is a pretty good arrangement, and it works well for you because it sounds like you are pretty self-motivated.
Fear not, you are doing real Karate.
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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shortyafter
Orange Belt
Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 169
Styles: Kyokushinkai, Shotokan
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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Hi all. OP here. Thanks for all of your insight and comments. This made me feel better about my karate.
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
All instructors have a different approach to teaching, and students have different approaches to learning. Some people like the drill-sergeant style instructors, and some don't. That doesn't make one style any more real or fake than the other.
You mentioned the stress factor of training. If you don't enjoy training, then you probably won't do it. At the same time, you don't want to be pampered to the point that your training won't be effective.
It sounds to me that what you have at your school is a pretty good arrangement, and it works well for you because it sounds like you are pretty self-motivated.
Fear not, you are doing real Karate. |
Thank you especially for this one. I feel like I have found a good balance with this school. As others have said, I have followed my heart.
Now I can stop worrying about if I'm doing karate and start focusing on learning the karate I am doing. |
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on the post.
