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Dojo02
White Belt
Joined: 25 Feb 2002
Posts: 18
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 Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| i have a simple question..Why is there so many disagreements with the J.K.A. and with other karate organizations. |
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Taikudo-ka
Green Belt
Joined: 20 Mar 2002
Posts: 450
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 9:41 am Post subject: |
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Maybe because everyone has a bit of a different idea of what karate should or shouldn't be. With Kickboxing or Tai Chi, for example, you pretty much know the genre and the type of fighting or lack thereof you'll be involved in.
But by making karate into something with broad appeal, trying to show the self-defense, sport, fitness, internal discipline and external displays (like breaking) all as aspects of the art, as well as various offshoots doing differnet things to make the art more appealing, easier for the masses, or conversely harder and more disciplined (eg Kyokushin introducing full contact sparring), I think the Japanese organizations set themselves up for this sort of thing. They made it popular by attracting people with all these different interests, perhaps not realizing that later on when these new people "took over the reigns" so to speak, there would inevitably be disagreement as to exactly what they had been studying, and why, and therefore where it should be taken.
Taking things to America would have no doubt only made things worse, as the spirit of individualism there means EVERYONE wants to break away and do their own thing, even IF their goals and approach to martial arts are similar.
Hence the enormous variety of styles, and ever present disputes, rules changes, splinter groups, etc. There must be more "styles" of karate than any other art except kung-fu... but at least with karate the government never tried to unify them into one "official" style like wu-shu. (Or Judo for that matter.)
Unlike most other modern Japanese Budo arts, which evolved out of earlier jutsu forms, usually directed by a single individual or group, karate was imported wholesale from Okinawa where the multitude of styles already existed. It came to Japan with a whole group of masters, who subsequently argued over just about everything from whether the kanji used for karate should be "Chinese Hands" or "Empty Hands", to whether there should be sparring or not. I think it was obvious from the start that karate-do was never going to be quite as unified and standardized as Kano's judo, no matter how much they tried to mould it into the form of a modern budo... the rough edges still show... but they make the art all the more interesting.
Note that the Japanese were also unable to prevent the Okinawan karate from spreading directly to other countries, not just Japan.
Thus today we have not only the multitude of Japanese karate styles, but also a range of styles descending directly from Okinawa.
No wonder no-one can agree on exactly what karate is and big organizations like the JKA constantly have disputes and what not. Let alone the normal politics and horse-play you get in any big organization...
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ramymensa
Black Belt
Joined: 12 Aug 2002
Posts: 1393
Location: Timisoara, Romania
Styles: Shotokan
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| Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2002 8:43 am Post subject: |
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Unfortunatelly the guys there (JKA and the others) are the first ones who forgot abot the DO, you know the one in KARATEDO. It should mean more than just POLITICS ... because this is it ... all the problems come from politics. The big organizations are runned almost like corporations, they want a very big "slice" from the "bread" of clients. Who gets the biggest share would do great. It's about power and sometimes about ego. It happend in Japan, in my country an in yours ... Karate is represented by HUMANS ... and they are ... human
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hobbitbob
Purple Belt
Joined: 15 Jun 2002
Posts: 545
Location: Denver
Styles: 3d dan Shotokan, 2d dan Wado Ryu, 1st dan Taekwondo, 1st dan Aikido
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2003 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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If you can find it, Harry Cook's book is a great source for the politics involved in the first split in 1957, and the latter one in 1987.
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Tigerspirit
Yellow Belt
Joined: 14 Jun 2003
Posts: 29
Location: Ireland
Styles: Shotokan
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 8:21 am Post subject: |
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i think ta problem is politics a student should not care about splits or politics. they should concentrate on becoming a good karate-ka and a loyal student. also if u have faith in your sensei he/she will choose ta correct political movements 4 u and the rest of ta students.
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hobbitbob
Purple Belt
Joined: 15 Jun 2002
Posts: 545
Location: Denver
Styles: 3d dan Shotokan, 2d dan Wado Ryu, 1st dan Taekwondo, 1st dan Aikido
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| Tigerspirit wrote: |
i think ta problem is politics a student should not care about splits or politics. they should concentrate on becoming a good karate-ka and a loyal student. also if u have faith in your sensei he/she will choose ta correct political movements 4 u and the rest of ta students.
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Karate is a way of life |
Would that this were so. Often the political splits have further implications. ISKF students, for example, are prohibited from atending seminars by non-ISKF people. What about recognition of Dan grade? For a long time neither Nishiyama or Okazaki's group recognized Dan ranking from Mr. Dalke's group, and still will not recognize rank from Mr. Kanazawa's group.
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Tigerspirit
Yellow Belt
Joined: 14 Jun 2003
Posts: 29
Location: Ireland
Styles: Shotokan
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2003 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| hobbitbob wrote: |
| Tigerspirit wrote: |
i think ta problem is politics a student should not care about splits or politics. they should concentrate on becoming a good karate-ka and a loyal student. also if u have faith in your sensei he/she will choose ta correct political movements 4 u and the rest of ta students.
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Karate is a way of life |
Would that this were so. Often the political splits have further implications. ISKF students, for example, are prohibited from atending seminars by non-ISKF people. What about recognition of Dan grade? For a long time neither Nishiyama or Okazaki's group recognized Dan ranking from Mr. Dalke's group, and still will not recognize rank from Mr. Kanazawa's group. |
U are correct there but theres notting i or u can do about that all we can do is train hard. There are some i'm asked not to train with and i understand that the splits are hard but i just keep working at my karate thats all i can do.
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Shotokan-Nidan |
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hobbitbob
Purple Belt
Joined: 15 Jun 2002
Posts: 545
Location: Denver
Styles: 3d dan Shotokan, 2d dan Wado Ryu, 1st dan Taekwondo, 1st dan Aikido
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2003 11:33 am Post subject: |
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I'm curios which organization you practice with? SKI is strong in Ireland, as is the group affiliated with Mr. Okazaki.
The difficulty comes when someone decides to move and continue practice. Suppose you were to go to university in the US and, as a practitioner of SKI shotokan, you found yourself at a dojo affiliated with the ISKF? "Thank you for that wonderfuul round of Kata and Kumite, now please put on this white belt, or alternately, you can pay us $500.00 to re-test to Shodan."
I have experienced this. My Shodan is from the Deutsche Karate Verbund (JKA Affiliate). My Nidan is from the ITKF,and my Sandan is from ISKF. 
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Tigerspirit
Yellow Belt
Joined: 14 Jun 2003
Posts: 29
Location: Ireland
Styles: Shotokan
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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i'm wit the j.k.a. i no it must be hard havin 2 regrade it happened 2 a few people i know because they were graded under kato. but tell me this when u did switch org did u do it because u just simple changed dojo or was it because u believed more in the other associations. are u still in the ISKF?
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Shotokan-Nidan |
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hobbitbob
Purple Belt
Joined: 15 Jun 2002
Posts: 545
Location: Denver
Styles: 3d dan Shotokan, 2d dan Wado Ryu, 1st dan Taekwondo, 1st dan Aikido
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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I started out in Wado in 1981, and stayed with the JKF Wado-Kai for ten yrs. In 1991 I joined the Army. Karlsruhe, Germany, my first assignment, had no Wado club. I trained with the Uni Shotokan club for those two years,and graded to Shodan in 1992 under the aegis of the Deutsche Karate Bund (JKA). My second assignment was to madigan Army medical Center, in Tacoma, Wa. The instructor of the Ft. Lewis Karate Club was associated with ITKF. I stayed in the Seattle area after leaving the Army in 1995, and graded to Nidan in 1996 (ITKF...confused yet? ). I went to the University of Maryland, Baltimore County for my MA in history in 1999. WHile there I trained with the Baltimore Karate Club (ISKF), as well as practicing with the university TKD club. I graded to Sandan (ISKF) in August of 2002. All are JKA rank, none are from the same organization.
I'm back in Colorado now doing a PhD (Go Buffs!), and have switched to Seibukan Shorin Ryu. I will grade in Okinawa next summer. Rumour has it that this will either be a grading to first or third, depending on how I do. Nervous...me..? Already!
The most frustrating thing was seeing the difference in Dan fees. My advice to Shotokan practitioners is go with the ITKF! My Nidan fees were reasonable. The ISKF's Dan fees are ridiculously high. I'm told that the fees for Seibukan will be $100.00, regardless of what Dan I receive! Of course, the cost of flying to Okinawa is rather high, presuming our fearless leader hasn't declared war on Japan by this time next year! 
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on the post.
