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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 11994
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo,Hapkido, SCA Combat, and I research Medieval Combat
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 Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| ShoriKid wrote: |
| On the other hand, where judo's lack of emphasis is the ground, which they cover, but not in as much depth, BJJ is weak on throws. A BJJ black belt locally was training at a traditional judo/jj school and I was there for his, I think, brown belt testing. When it came to the ground work, the sweeps, subs etc, he was smooth and had perfect technique. His throws and takedowns though, no where near as smooth. They functioned, but they didn't have the same look of intimate aquaintance his ground work did. If that makes any sense. |
I have heard and read several examples of this before, and I think it is easily seen when you see a BJJer attempt to takedown fighters in the MMA ring. They usually get the job done, but it doesn't look smooth.
Good post, overall. Lots of good information. 
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glockmeister
Green Belt
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Posts: 463
Location: Pa
Styles: Haganah, Krav Maga, JKD, Kickboxing,BJJ, Judo
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:22 am Post subject: |
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Judo does have a lot more rules. The throws have to be certain throws, the opponent has to land cleanly on his back in order to score, etc. Also there are no leg submissions allowed in Judo. These things do not matter in BJJ. Leg locks are legal and a take down is a take down as long as you are in control when the opponent goes down.
In Judo, you can win by a "pin" whereas BJJ there is no such was to win, either by points or submission. You can't win on the mat simply by holding the other guy down.
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ShoriKid
Orange Belt
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 130
Styles: Matsubyashi-Ryu, Okinawan Kempo, wrestling(submission, Greco-Roman)
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| In Judo, you can win by a "pin" whereas BJJ there is no such was to win, either by points or submission. You can't win on the mat simply by holding the other guy down. |
In a very technical sense, yes, you can win by holding the other guy down. Relavent rules here.
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| A-) TAKE DOWNS: Any kind of knocking down the opponent or being taken down on his back side, 2 points. If the athlete is thrown to the ground and does not land on his back, the thrower must pin him to the ground in the same position for at least 3 seconds to gain the points of the take down. |
Meaning, as you critized Judo for not scoring throws that don't land on the back, BJJ won't award a take down unless the throw puts them on their back, unless you pin them for a 3 count. So, in a close match, yes, you could win by pinning someone to secure the take down from a throw not landing on the back.
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| Also there are no leg submissions allowed in Judo. These things do not matter in BJJ. Leg locks are legal |
Leg locks in anything other than adult brown/black belt level are illegal. Even then a heel hook is still illegal. If you've delt with leg locks much, they are harder to judge, on both ends of the technique, when they are well locked out. You'll run into joint damage more easily because you don't feel the pain in a knee as readily as you will in the shoulder or elbow. So, there is a lot more judgement and risk of damage, meaning it's a safety issue that judo doesn't wish to expose itself to. BJJ at this time, doesn't mind higher end adults taking those risks. As the number of BJJ competitors grows and injuries mount(Just by the numbers game they will), that may change.
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| a take down is a take down as long as you are in control when the opponent goes down |
With the above limitation on them having to land on their back. Which means that the throws only work for take down points, as that's the catigory throws fall into for BJJ, on the same general conditions that judo throws score. Not nearly the difference you seem to be indicating.
The difference between the two sports is not in the technique that they contain, but in the emphasis of their competitions and the length of their lives. Judo seeks, at it's perfect implimentation, the decisive throw that would end a conflict. BJJ seeks the submission perfectly exicuted. Judo has had a longer time to build up rules in international competition, in which BJJ is still relatively young. [/b]
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ravenzoom
Green Belt
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 384
Location: Quebec, Canada
Styles: BJJ
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| Good post Shorikid, enjoyed reading it. |
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glockmeister
Green Belt
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Posts: 463
Location: Pa
Styles: Haganah, Krav Maga, JKD, Kickboxing,BJJ, Judo
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks ShoriKid, I stand corrected
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"You know the best thing about pain? It let's you know you're not dead yet!" |
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ShoriKid
Orange Belt
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 130
Styles: Matsubyashi-Ryu, Okinawan Kempo, wrestling(submission, Greco-Roman)
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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glockmeister,
No worries sir. Just depends on how you read the rules. My posting was just to point to a techinical reading of the rules. The way things are present, while rarely meant to be misleading, often give the wrong impression of an art. I feel like that hurts the arts over all. i like to be able to walk into a judo dojo or a BJJ academy, or a kung-fu school and talk to the people training in each art. And, I like to trade techniques. The more respect and open knowledge people have of different arts, the easier I think that transmission of knowledge is.
One thing I was discussing with someone last night before we started rolling was the Judo pin being a 30 second hold down compaired to say, a wrestling 3.5 sec pin fall. That long a period of time indicates agreat deal of control over your oponent.
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pittbullJudoka
KF Sempai
Joined: 25 Jun 2004
Posts: 458
Styles: Ryu Kyu Kempo, Matsubayashi Shorin-Ryu, Japanese Jujitsu , Judo, Wrestling, Submission Wrestling, Hayastan, Mixed Martial Arts
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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I've seen a few pins in international Judo compotion and useally the Judoka on the bottem can't move at all. So I'd say the pin makes a very dominate statement.
Think if you were rolling with someone who could put you on you back and immobilize you completely for 30 seconds. This means you can't even move their body an inch. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 11994
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo,Hapkido, SCA Combat, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| pittbullJudoka wrote: |
I've seen a few pins in international Judo compotion and useally the Judoka on the bottem can't move at all. So I'd say the pin makes a very dominate statement.
Think if you were rolling with someone who could put you on you back and immobilize you completely for 30 seconds. This means you can't even move their body an inch. |
I never realized that about the Judo pin. I see so much of the throws, that I have never seen the pin maneuvers. I can't imagine being held down like that for that long.
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pittbullJudoka
KF Sempai
Joined: 25 Jun 2004
Posts: 458
Styles: Ryu Kyu Kempo, Matsubayashi Shorin-Ryu, Japanese Jujitsu , Judo, Wrestling, Submission Wrestling, Hayastan, Mixed Martial Arts
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Check the offical Oplymics Rules a pin is just 25 seconds. I'm trying to find some good pins to let everyone see. |
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NightOwl
KF Sempai
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 981
Location: Japan
Styles: This and that, Rookie Judo
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on the post.
