Jun Fan Gung Fu (JKD)

thaiboxerken · Black Belt

well.. BJJ doesn't realy on mass and strength. You are mistaken there. Anyway, I can understand your arguement. Many people in the MMA are truly learning just for the ring sport and aren't interested in self-defense. But, learning the ring sport of MMA does teach them pretty effective self-defense against unarmed opponents.
Ground fighting isn't and wasn't nearly as sophisticated as it is today. This is the influence of BJJ. They are the most effective at it, but then again, that's pretty much all they do in that art.
I feel if it takes years of training to get a technique or series of techniques to really work for self-defense.. then something is wrong. That's my opinion.. I want to defend myself now, in-case something happens tomorrow. I can't tell a mugger" can you wait 3 years until I am good at kung-fu?".

_________________
Just kick 'em, they'll understand.- Me
Apprentice Instructor under Guro Inosanto in Jun Fan Gung Fu and Filipinno Martial arts.
Certified Instructor of Frank Cucci's Linxx system of martial arts.

Tim Greer · Orange Belt

I guess I wasn't clear or specific enough about BJJ and the size of the person, as much as I meant to say (I thought I did?) that in the medium of UFC/NHB. Of course, I also don't assume you were only speaking of BJJ in that manner either as per in a ring. And, of course any real hitting in the ring does give people experience for real street fighting, since in the ring, they are being hit, most certainly. Not many people can take that, no matter what style they study, it's very different, of course.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that many of these techniques in BJJ were built off of to always be a better system, or more updated and the other techniques being out of date. Any real, effective style is going to always develop too, advance and perfect and be up to date. Some styles and tecniques that are very old are still very effective, but obviously some are not, and in almost any art. Since BJJ is relatively new and just tries to keep it that way and up to date and building effective techniques for the purpose of the art, then I can see your argument being valid there. However, as I said and I'm sure you must be aware, other arts, such as Kung Fu styles also keep updated and continue to develop the style. A lot of people mistake Kung Fu styles with being old and static and they definitely are not, just as JKD isn't, just as JKD isn't really even a style in itself per se anyway -- as I'm also sure you're aware.

Finally, as far as taking 3+ years to learn to use an art effectively, that's not what I had meant. It's just that a lot of effective styles do build their students up, give them an understanding of balance, how to deal with things, not get taken down, effective means to do many things, such as defend and attack, of course -- as any other art should and does -- and a vaerity of other things. Some shcools deal with different things and mainly focus on different things or put their students through a long, possibly boring regime that is near pointless and takes far too long to use effectively. However, there are many schools that do not take this approach and do teach more immediate things.

However, as you know, the more you learn and more skillful you become, the more advanced you can be. Styles like Kung Fu are far reaching and deal with such a great variety of styles and techniques, that it would take anyone more than a life time to learn all of them. That's not to say it takes a life time to learn how to effectively use them though. It's simply (and what I guess I meant, was) that you aren't likely to learn some effective ground fighting in Kung Fu as quickly as they'll teach it in BJJ, but there are just as effective moves in Kung Fu styles as BJJ, and that BJJ simply focuses on this aspect, which is why it might take longer -- since there's simply so much to learn, because it's such a wide ranging art.

It's not like I have to explain this, but there's no reason to make light of what I said, as if you're going to have to wait years to protect yourself. If that's the case, you've trained with the wrong people (not that you've ever trained in it). Of course, that aspect goes without saying for anyone in any art, if it's not teaching them anything useful. That's not to say the student isn't patient, but I'd prefer to learn BJJ and Kung Fu in addition and use whatever I know and can use at the time with the most effect, while I learn more of another art that I know will be effective, even if it takes time to cover all the wider range of aspects it offers (this is just an example, but a working one at that). I wouldn't dismiss that or assume it's a waste of time. I'm just curious if you do flat out, or if I just misunderstood what you were saying?

Anyway, on another note; Where did you study with Inosanto? At the Inosanto Academy in Marina Del Rey? Any thoughts on Doce Pares? And, are you familiar with either Kru Joey or Billy Soksoda (Soksoda Muay Thai), or John Dill (Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu -- studied Brazilian Jiu Jitsu under Rickson, Rorion, Royce, and Royler Gracie. He has also studied under Brazilian Jiu Jitsu black belts James Boran and Roy Harris)? I'm curious, as these people are local, in my town, and I'm curious if you're familiar with them (A long shot, I know), since you're into these arts.

_________________
Regards,
Tim Greer -> admin@chatbase.com | Phone: 530-222-7244
I study any and every style and I'm always looking to spar!!
Also, if I'm not around for a while, I'm just away training. :-)

Apollo · White Belt

As for Sakuraba, he is a pro-wrestler and a national freestyle wrestling champion. In Japan, pro-wrestling has submissions, knockouts, etc. Thats where he learned techniques like the armbar, heel hook, etc. He has nothing to do with BJJ, other than beating the tar out of its best practicioners.

In the early days, Mark Coleman was not technical at all, but he is improving in his submissions, knees, kicks, etc.

You also have to remember that there were thousands of people in this country already training in judo, traditional ju-jutsu, greco-roman wrestling, freestyle wrestling, folk style wrestling, etc. These people were not as surprised when they saw grappling be used effectively in the ring.

Royce Gracie expanded NHB, but in a way, limited it. He made people think ground technique is the only important thing, in the past, you would have been foolish to throw a low kick, much less a high kick.

Then, came people like Maurice Smith, who knocked out a BJJ black belt (Conan S.) with a high kick. Sakuraba came and demolished Royce, Ralph, Renzo, Royler, Conan S, and many other BJJ black belts. Shonie Carter knocked out a Renzo black belt with a spinning backfist in UFC 31. The game is constantly changing, and if Royce came back, he would be demolished.

Royce isn't even the best in sport BJJ, Wallid Ismail beat him, as well as Renzo and Ryan, and he is only a first degree black belt.

I do respect and sometimes train in BJJ, over at Carlson Gracie Jr's academy in Chicago and in Naperville, Illinois. If you are ever by the area, I reccomend you stop by at the school, they will welcome you with open arms, and teach you many techniques and strategies you have never even heard of before.

thaiboxerken · Black Belt

I recieved most of my training in Virginia Beach under Frank Cucci. Inosanto would come around all the time to give seminars, and the last time he certified me to apprentice instructor. Master Chai also did seminars at Frank's school As for Brazillian Jujitsu I'm learning with Tom Proctor right now and Pedro Sauer comes to give seminars. I was just in Salt Lake City a couple weeks ago for a 3day cam at Pedro's school. I've heard of Doce Pares, but haven't been exposed.
I'm also training in Silat with a guy named Vince Perez-Mazolla, who was a staff instructor at Inosanot Academy. He also trained with Paul Detuaour (sp) in france and is certified to teach by Herman Suwanda.

People did jump on the BJJ band wagon right after Royce did his thing. Royce wasn't picked because he is the best BJJ player. He was picked because he was the smallest and the Gracies wanted to prove that with their system, the smaller guy can win.
Sakuraba is a great fighter, but if you don't think that BJJ changed the strategy of his game, you're crazy. The techniques probably came from Shootwrestling. I know Eric Paulsen showed us how submissions are modified for pro-wrestling in japan and he's a shootwrestler.

_________________
Just kick 'em, they'll understand.- Me
Apprentice Instructor under Guro Inosanto in Jun Fan Gung Fu and Filipinno Martial arts.
Certified Instructor of Frank Cucci's Linxx system of martial arts.

Tim Greer · Orange Belt

If anyone hasn't already, be sure to check out any schools that teach real San Shou Kuai Jiao (Chinese fast Wrestling). If you're lucky enough to find a school that really teaches this, you won't be sorry. It's very cool and deals with a lot of styles and techniques for throws and take downs and ground fighting and controlling techniques. Throw in a mix with some Chin Na and you talk about cool!

_________________
Regards,
Tim Greer -> admin@chatbase.com | Phone: 530-222-7244
I study any and every style and I'm always looking to spar!!
Also, if I'm not around for a while, I'm just away training. :-)

Karateka · Red Belt

Arguing about which art is better is pointless. There is no possible way to say which is better because they help people in different ways.

_________________
"Never hit a man while he's down; kick him, its easier"

Sensei Ron Bagley (My Sensei)

thaiboxerken · Black Belt

But arguing about which art is better is fun!! It's extremely fun when someone takes it serious too.

_________________
Just kick 'em, they'll understand.- Me
Apprentice Instructor under Guro Inosanto in Jun Fan Gung Fu and Filipinno Martial arts.
Certified Instructor of Frank Cucci's Linxx system of martial arts.

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