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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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 Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: karate origin wiki |
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| pinklady6000 wrote: |
according wikipedia karate oringinated from fujian white crane:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karate
which I find suprising as I thought it came from jujitsu like judo?
pink |
To the first point... wikipedia is not exactly the end all truth to anything. Yes Bai He Quan is one of the main Quan Fa that influenced what we call Karate and so did five ancestors, five animals, Lohan Quan just to name a few.
You are unfortunately under the understanding that Karate is a Japanese art. It did not come from Jujutsu or Judo. Karate comes from Okinawa. The term Karate however is Japanese.
Toudi (Tang or China hand) was changed to Karate (Empty Hand) to appease the Japanese who hated everything Chinese. Since Chinese martial arts had a vast influence on the Okinawan combative arts most, if not all, Okinawan Bushi called the art Toudi or was termed after the area it came from like Suidi for Shuri, Tumaidi for Tomari or Nafadi for Naha. However it was not, as some would suggest, a Chinese art. There were many influences before the Chinese arts such as Siamese Boxing (Muay Boran) and not to mention the indigenous percussive art of Ti and the grappling art of Muto (Tegumi).
Many Westerners have a skewed understanding of the art and this is not the first time that I have heard someone claim that Karate comes from Jujutsu or Judo. This is of course impossible as what we call Karate pre-dates Judo and the predecessor of the name Karate which is Ti was definitely not influenced by Jujutsu.
Some however have suggested that Ju Jutsu influenced Karate in some respects because Matsumura "Bushi" Sokon lived and studied Kenjutsu with the Satsuma and it is very plausible that he learned or at least picked up some Ju Jutsu during his time of study. Some suggest this because a few of the throws, take downs, joint locks and submissions within the Kata, which we call Muto (Tegumi) are very similar or exactly the same with minor differences as those practiced in Ju Jutsu. However based on my research I would debunk this as I have found that these same techniques are contained within Jiao li or what is now called Shuai Jiao (Chinese Wrestling) and also within Quin Na or Chin Na (Joint Seizing and Manipulation). This actually leads me to believe that Ju Jutsu was influenced by Chinese arts due to the fact that Jiao Li (Di) predates Ju Jutsu.
Either way Karate in the sense of pre-japanization of the art has nothing to do with Japanese arts and especially Judo and most likely Ju Jutsu although there are small comparison techniques as stated before, which again can be debunked.
Karate today in most modern arts is heavily influenced by the Japanization but this does not change the fact that Karate or Toudi is not a Japanese art in terms of creation. The Japanese had no influence on Toudi up until the time Gichin Funakoshi introduced it and its name was changed and the techniques and Kata's were changed to suite the Japanese ideal of the arts at that time.
Old school Karate (Toudi) is a combative art based on the indigenous percussive art or Ti, the grappling art of Muto, Siamese boxing and Chinese martial arts to include weapons. Nothing about Toudi was ever influenced by Japan. It's the direct opposite. Toudi was well received by Japan and so much so that they decided to make it their own and coined the name we all know today as Karate and changed the way it is practiced. In doing this they also lost the main intent of the art which is combative in nature. The Kata and two man drills being the main focus was replaced by Kihon and Kumite in modern terms.
Kata was (is in some arts) the focus. It was practiced loosely and the applications that the movements or postures represented where focused on in two man drills. The intent was to teach the practitioner to fight. Today's focus is on sharp, crisp and snapping techniques and how well they look and sound rather than on the function of the applications the Kata represents.
No! Karate is not Japanese other than the name.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| pinklady6000 wrote: |
| Wastelander wrote: |
| Karate is an amalgamation of native Okinawan ti'gwa, Siamese boxing, likely various other Indochinese arts, Japanese jujutsu and weapons arts, and various (mostly Southern) Chinese arts. The White Crane connection is, in my view, strongly overstated. There are certainly some styles on Okinawa that were directly influenced by White Crane, specifically, but none that I know of that can truly be said to have evolved directly from it. A lot of the supposed White Crane influences actually came from Whooping Crane, if they came from Crane systems at all. |
I have just looked at a map of okinawa and japan and they are 1000 of miles apart! how can karate be influenced by okinawa or china? japan is closer to korea and russia. i would say tkd is more likely influence of karate. as for russia i don't know want they do.
pink |
TKD was influenced by Shotokan Karate.
Japan did not influence Karate prior to it being brought to Japan by Gichin Funakoshi who was Okinawan. I am not sure where you are going with the closer to Japan idea but I think you still think Karate is a Japanese art.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Dani_001 wrote: |
| White Crane Kung Fu and Karate-do looks very different. To say that it has a main influence is overstated. |
On appearances I would agree wholeheartedly. However there is one thing you are failing to understand. If you look at 90%+ of Okinawan arts, non of them look like Chinese arts. This is primarily because they are not Chinese. The Okinawan founders were not just influenced by the Chinese and because of this they interjected not only the Chinese arts but also their own and others that had prior influence. One other thing to consider is the fact that tradition was to make the art your own. Each subsequent teacher put his brand so to speak on the art. There were subtle changes to the Kata as they were passed down from one to the next. Even within the same school the Kata was or could be taught slightly differently from one student to the next.
The argument that "since it doesn't look exactly like this it must not be" isn't valid unless you can with utmost certainty debunk it.
The Kata that was taken directly from the Chinese Hsing is even different from the way it is performed in China but if inspected closely one can see the connection. The applications (Bunkai) are another place to look for comparisons.
Do I buy into Bai He Quan being the main Chinese art that influenced Toudi? No. I would not even put it into the top three, but there is definitive proof that it did influence Shuri, Tomari and especially Naha Toudi.
You need not look further than the multitude of Crane techniques within the different Kata. If crane had little to no influence there sure are a lot of techniques and applications that now have no explanation of how they got into so many Kata.
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pinklady6000
Yellow Belt
Joined: 04 Jun 2017
Posts: 74
Location: sheffield
Styles: wrestling, shinkicking, jkd
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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that white crane kung fu is not apart of karate and it is now linked to karate for ever, because wiki is fixed as a fact for ever they will not change it.
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wild flowers |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| pinklady6000 wrote: |
| that white crane kung fu is not apart of karate and it is now linked to karate for ever, because wiki is fixed as a fact for ever they will not change it. |
Well I hate to disagree but Bai He Quan is very much apart of Karate. It is one of the many Quan Fa that influenced the art.
The main reason most do not readily see the comparisons within the Kata is because most do not have a grasp on the history of Toudi (Karate) nor the Okinawan's as a people.
Karate is the first MMA if you will. The Okinawan people collected any combative method that they found useful from many countries and many arts. The indigenous art of Ti was similar in many respects to boxing. Muto or Tegumi as the Japanese call it is a grappling/wrestling art. Muay Boran or Siamese boxing influenced Ti by incorporating many of their techniques and applications. Later Chinese martial arts like White Crane (Bai He Quan), Monk Fist (Lohan Quan), Five ancestors fist and five animals fist just to name a few all contributed to the development of what we call Karate.
The reason it does not appear exactly like one style or another is because it's not just that style. The Kata is a mixture or melting pot if you will of many forms of combative arts melded into one.
The Okinawan people are not Chinese. They respected the Chinese but they are not Chinese. So there fore they will not fight like the Chinese just like they do not fight like the Siamese or the Japanese.
Toudi (Karate) is an art unto itself. It doesn't look like White Crane because it's not White Crane. It incorporates elements of White Crane but it's not just White Crane. Just like it incorporates elements of all of the other influences.
You can plainly see the elements of the different Quan Fa throughout the Kata if you do the research.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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pinklady6000
Yellow Belt
Joined: 04 Jun 2017
Posts: 74
Location: sheffield
Styles: wrestling, shinkicking, jkd
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| Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
| pinklady6000 wrote: |
| that white crane kung fu is not apart of karate and it is now linked to karate for ever, because wiki is fixed as a fact for ever they will not change it. |
Well I hate to disagree but Bai He Quan is very much apart of Karate. It is one of the many Quan Fa that influenced the art.
The main reason most do not readily see the comparisons within the Kata is because most do not have a grasp on the history of Toudi (Karate) nor the Okinawan's as a people.
Karate is the first MMA if you will. The Okinawan people collected any combative method that they found useful from many countries and many arts. The indigenous art of Ti was similar in many respects to boxing. Muto or Tegumi as the Japanese call it is a grappling/wrestling art. Muay Boran or Siamese boxing influenced Ti by incorporating many of their techniques and applications. Later Chinese martial arts like White Crane (Bai He Quan), Monk Fist (Lohan Quan), Five ancestors fist and five animals fist just to name a few all contributed to the development of what we call Karate.
The reason it does not appear exactly like one style or another is because it's not just that style. The Kata is a mixture or melting pot if you will of many forms of combative arts melded into one.
The Okinawan people are not Chinese. They respected the Chinese but they are not Chinese. So there fore they will not fight like the Chinese just like they do not fight like the Siamese or the Japanese.
Toudi (Karate) is an art unto itself. It doesn't look like White Crane because it's not White Crane. It incorporates elements of White Crane but it's not just White Crane. Just like it incorporates elements of all of the other influences.
You can plainly see the elements of the different Quan Fa throughout the Kata if you do the research. |
hey MatsuShinshii:
thank you for that. What you wrote is really interesting. You say the okinawan people are not chinese, would you say they are not japanese also, even though okinawan is a part of japan?( I might be wrong on that part)
pink
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wild flowers |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| pinklady6000 wrote: |
| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
| pinklady6000 wrote: |
| that white crane kung fu is not apart of karate and it is now linked to karate for ever, because wiki is fixed as a fact for ever they will not change it. |
Well I hate to disagree but Bai He Quan is very much apart of Karate. It is one of the many Quan Fa that influenced the art.
The main reason most do not readily see the comparisons within the Kata is because most do not have a grasp on the history of Toudi (Karate) nor the Okinawan's as a people.
Karate is the first MMA if you will. The Okinawan people collected any combative method that they found useful from many countries and many arts. The indigenous art of Ti was similar in many respects to boxing. Muto or Tegumi as the Japanese call it is a grappling/wrestling art. Muay Boran or Siamese boxing influenced Ti by incorporating many of their techniques and applications. Later Chinese martial arts like White Crane (Bai He Quan), Monk Fist (Lohan Quan), Five ancestors fist and five animals fist just to name a few all contributed to the development of what we call Karate.
The reason it does not appear exactly like one style or another is because it's not just that style. The Kata is a mixture or melting pot if you will of many forms of combative arts melded into one.
The Okinawan people are not Chinese. They respected the Chinese but they are not Chinese. So there fore they will not fight like the Chinese just like they do not fight like the Siamese or the Japanese.
Toudi (Karate) is an art unto itself. It doesn't look like White Crane because it's not White Crane. It incorporates elements of White Crane but it's not just White Crane. Just like it incorporates elements of all of the other influences.
You can plainly see the elements of the different Quan Fa throughout the Kata if you do the research. |
hey MatsuShinshii:
thank you for that. What you wrote is really interesting. You say the okinawan people are not chinese, would you say they are not japanese also, even though okinawan is a part of japan?( I might be wrong on that part)
pink |
I guess it depends on who you ask (or which Okinawan you ask). Okinawa is an island chain that's been annexed by Japan. Without looking it up, I think Okinawa has been annexed and regained their independence several times over the centuries.
I look at it like Hawaii - while it's a part of the US, they have their distinct culture and traditions, along with mainland USA's. They're Hawaiians, and they're Americans. Some Hawaiians may not consider themselves Americans, but I think that mentality was far more prevalent a few generations ago. From what I've read and assumed, Okinawa is very similar. Perhaps not. |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| pinklady6000 wrote: |
| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
| pinklady6000 wrote: |
| that white crane kung fu is not apart of karate and it is now linked to karate for ever, because wiki is fixed as a fact for ever they will not change it. |
Well I hate to disagree but Bai He Quan is very much apart of Karate. It is one of the many Quan Fa that influenced the art.
The main reason most do not readily see the comparisons within the Kata is because most do not have a grasp on the history of Toudi (Karate) nor the Okinawan's as a people.
Karate is the first MMA if you will. The Okinawan people collected any combative method that they found useful from many countries and many arts. The indigenous art of Ti was similar in many respects to boxing. Muto or Tegumi as the Japanese call it is a grappling/wrestling art. Muay Boran or Siamese boxing influenced Ti by incorporating many of their techniques and applications. Later Chinese martial arts like White Crane (Bai He Quan), Monk Fist (Lohan Quan), Five ancestors fist and five animals fist just to name a few all contributed to the development of what we call Karate.
The reason it does not appear exactly like one style or another is because it's not just that style. The Kata is a mixture or melting pot if you will of many forms of combative arts melded into one.
The Okinawan people are not Chinese. They respected the Chinese but they are not Chinese. So there fore they will not fight like the Chinese just like they do not fight like the Siamese or the Japanese.
Toudi (Karate) is an art unto itself. It doesn't look like White Crane because it's not White Crane. It incorporates elements of White Crane but it's not just White Crane. Just like it incorporates elements of all of the other influences.
You can plainly see the elements of the different Quan Fa throughout the Kata if you do the research. |
hey MatsuShinshii:
thank you for that. What you wrote is really interesting. You say the okinawan people are not chinese, would you say they are not japanese also, even though okinawan is a part of japan?( I might be wrong on that part)
pink |
I would say that. Okinawan's are not Japanese. In fact they were an independent nation (Ryukyu Kingdom) ruled by their own king up until they were annexed in 1879 by Japan. Up until this point they ruled their own people and were independent of Japan and China, Minus the time frame that the Satsuma invaded and subsequently held the Ryukyu kingdom under military occupation, but even during this period Ryukyu was ruled by an Okinawan king.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| JR 137 wrote: |
| I look at it like Hawaii - while it's a part of the US, they have their distinct culture and traditions, along with mainland USA's. They're Hawaiians, and they're Americans. Some Hawaiians may not consider themselves Americans, but I think that mentality was far more prevalent a few generations ago. From what I've read and assumed, Okinawa is very similar. Perhaps not. |
Hit the nail on the head. Great analogy JR137.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1902
Styles: Shorin ryu
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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The only thing that is absolutely clear about Okinawan karate and many other cultural aspects is that there is an obvious and strong Chinese influence. What is much more difficult to do is identify the sources precisely as specific styles.
What is known and likely by logical thinking is that a large portion of the Chinese martial arts influence must have come from Fujian province in southeastern China. The coast there had(and still does) many important trading ports, which were regularly visited by Okinawan ships.
There is also a rich history of martial arts devolving there and Okinawans are known to have gone there to study and even immigrate. It is highly plausible then, that the most likely source of influence on Okinawan karate were "southern" styles.
Further influences likely came from cultural and diplomatic exchanges between the Chinese and Ryukyu. From at least the 14th century it was a custom for high-ranking families to send their sons to China to study. The martial arts were an important part of the classical education for the nobles/warrior classes. There were also many officials and agents from China appointed to the Ryukyuan court who were also experts in different martial arts and probably shared skills and techniques with their Ryukyuan counterparts. |
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on the post.
