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Judodad_karateson
Orange Belt
Joined: 27 May 2015
Posts: 222
Styles: judo, boxing, Karate
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 Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| Wastelander wrote: |
| Ah, right. Kenshin-kan is Kise Fusei Sensei's system, is it not? Yes, that wouldn't really be geared toward tournaments, from what I've seen. Even so, it wouldn't hurt to ask the Sensei at your dojo about it, because a lot of instructors have varied backgrounds, and they may be able to help prepare for a tournament, anyway. If not, then yes, it may be beneficial to find a local dojo that does tournament-specific classes, and ask to come to those every now and then. I would say your son probably won't be as good at it as the people who constantly train for it, but his training will have more depth. |
Depth is definitely good. Tournaments are just one aspect. Though it was already a blast, and always gave your training more focys, my son is only 5 right now, so its not like he is going to be competing any time soon. And I'm old and need to get back into shape first, so likewise for me, haha.
So if understand you correctly, this style isn't geared for sports, but may give a better understanding of the art of Karate as a whole? |
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2734
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| Judodad_karateson wrote: |
Depth is definitely good. Tournaments are just one aspect. Though it was already a blast, and always gave your training more focys, my son is only 5 right now, so its not like he is going to be competing any time soon. And I'm old and need to get back into shape first, so likewise for me, haha.
So if understand you correctly, this style isn't geared for sports, but may give a better understanding of the art of Karate as a whole? |
Exactly. Competitive sport karate is a very specialized thing--especially when it's point kumite. It is modeled after kendo competition, and designed to be done at very long distance, with an emphasis on speed, clean engagement/disengagement, and the "one strike, one kill" concept that was adopted from Japanese swordsmanship (the same one you find in judo, in the form of the ippon). In contrast, old-school karate is actually a rather close-range system of fighting, and involves a lot of grabbing, low kicking, and joint locks, which aren't usually allowed in point kumite, and even if they were, they kind of require a fight to last beyond a single blow, which doesn't happen in point kumite because they reset after each landed blow.
To be successful, you have to train specifically for that long range and speed, and to use only scoring techniques, but some of the skills you develop through old-school karate can certainly translate into the sport realm. It has some definite value in helping you develop the ability to close the gap between you and an attacker, and picking up body language and telegraphed attacks. Outside of that, though, there is much more to learn in the old methods, which provide a lifetime of study. I also happen to believe that the old methods are better for self defense, if trained properly.
_________________
Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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wildbourgman
Orange Belt
Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 172
Location: Louisiana
Styles: Shotokan/Shorin Ryu
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| Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| From what I've seen of the points sparring karate, the back-and-forth sounds like more fun, to be honest. What Organizations tend to use that kind of style for tournaments? |
Yes the back and forth is fun for as for me though my poor cardio prevents me from enjoying it as I would have 25 years ago and even then my cardio wasn't my strong suit.
I only know of Kenshin Kan using that format for Sparring, I'm sure others use it but I haven't been exposed to them.
| Quote: |
| Ah, right. Kenshin-kan is Kise Fusei Sensei's system, is it not? |
Yes Wastelander, Master Fusei Kise is the founder of that system. I agree it's not exactly tournament oriented and I love tournaments, but I wouldn't steer anyone away from that system. I really appreciate how I'm growing by learning Okinawan karate.
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2734
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| wildbourgman wrote: |
Yes Wastelander, Master Fusei Kise is the founder of that system. I agree it's not exactly tournament oriented and I love tournaments, but I wouldn't steer anyone away from that system. I really appreciate how I'm growing by learning Okinawan karate. |
Of course not--I'm the last person to steer someone away from old-school Okinawan karate! 
_________________
Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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wildbourgman
Orange Belt
Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 172
Location: Louisiana
Styles: Shotokan/Shorin Ryu
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| Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Wastelander wrote: |
| wildbourgman wrote: |
Yes Wastelander, Master Fusei Kise is the founder of that system. I agree it's not exactly tournament oriented and I love tournaments, but I wouldn't steer anyone away from that system. I really appreciate how I'm growing by learning Okinawan karate. |
Of course not--I'm the last person to steer someone away from old-school Okinawan karate! |
No not you, I was talking about me sounding like, I would steer anyone away from Okinawan karate. For that matter I wouldn't steer anyone away from Japanese karate unless they expressed something that made me believe they would fit better in another style.
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Judodad_karateson
Orange Belt
Joined: 27 May 2015
Posts: 222
Styles: judo, boxing, Karate
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| Wastelander wrote: |
Exactly. Competitive sport karate is a very specialized thing--especially when it's point kumite. It is modeled after kendo competition, and designed to be done at very long distance, with an emphasis on speed, clean engagement/disengagement, and the "one strike, one kill" concept that was adopted from Japanese swordsmanship (the same one you find in judo, in the form of the ippon). In contrast, old-school karate is actually a rather close-range system of fighting, and involves a lot of grabbing, low kicking, and joint locks, which aren't usually allowed in point kumite, and even if they were, they kind of require a fight to last beyond a single blow, which doesn't happen in point kumite because they reset after each landed blow.
To be successful, you have to train specifically for that long range and speed, and to use only scoring techniques, but some of the skills you develop through old-school karate can certainly translate into the sport realm. It has some definite value in helping you develop the ability to close the gap between you and an attacker, and picking up body language and telegraphed attacks. Outside of that, though, there is much more to learn in the old methods, which provide a lifetime of study. I also happen to believe that the old methods are better for self defense, if trained properly. |
Grabs? joint locks? Low kicks? Why doesn't anyone do tournaments like that!?!?!  |
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2734
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Judodad_karateson wrote: |
| Wastelander wrote: |
Exactly. Competitive sport karate is a very specialized thing--especially when it's point kumite. It is modeled after kendo competition, and designed to be done at very long distance, with an emphasis on speed, clean engagement/disengagement, and the "one strike, one kill" concept that was adopted from Japanese swordsmanship (the same one you find in judo, in the form of the ippon). In contrast, old-school karate is actually a rather close-range system of fighting, and involves a lot of grabbing, low kicking, and joint locks, which aren't usually allowed in point kumite, and even if they were, they kind of require a fight to last beyond a single blow, which doesn't happen in point kumite because they reset after each landed blow.
To be successful, you have to train specifically for that long range and speed, and to use only scoring techniques, but some of the skills you develop through old-school karate can certainly translate into the sport realm. It has some definite value in helping you develop the ability to close the gap between you and an attacker, and picking up body language and telegraphed attacks. Outside of that, though, there is much more to learn in the old methods, which provide a lifetime of study. I also happen to believe that the old methods are better for self defense, if trained properly. |
Grabs? joint locks? Low kicks? Why doesn't anyone do tournaments like that!?!?! |
Well, knockdown styles allow low kicks, and some allow limited grabbing. Then there's Daido Juku, which is basically MMA in a gi with headgear. Those kinds of tournaments are just not very popular here in the US, at least from what I've seen. I suppose part of it could simply be that people don't like that level of contact, but I don't think that's the whole story. The types of tournaments we mostly see, today, are evolutions of the sport fighting that the Japanese (largely Shotokan) karate styles did when karate was being spread to America. It was what people recognized, so that is what became popular. The knockdown styles came later, after that was already established, and MMA came even later than that.
Now, joint locks are a bit tricky, because it's just difficult to do standing joint locks without injuring your opponent. You can see some of it in the pushing hands competitions of Chen Tai Chi, along with a variety of throws and sweeps. Honestly, I would really like to put together a kakedameshi competition, which would be something like those pushing hands competitions, but with striking and kicking allowed. I rather doubt I would get much participation, though.
_________________
Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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Judodad_karateson
Orange Belt
Joined: 27 May 2015
Posts: 222
Styles: judo, boxing, Karate
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2015 3:04 am Post subject: |
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I guess it is hard to change the sport any more without making it idential to Kick Boxing or MMA in this day and age. Still, it is very limited compared to the wealth of techniques Karate offers.
As for the level of contact, I don't mean to sound like a meathead, and maybe this is my Judo background talking, but ITS A MARTIAL ART! If these folks are scared of that level kind of contact, the should looking in something more like Yoga or Tai Chi, or at least a non-sparring martial art like Aikido. Well, I guess everyone does Karate for different reasons, who am I to judge? |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16427
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2015 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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SAFETY!!
That's why certain things are allowed and not allowed in any given tournament and the like. After the weekend, competitors have to go to work and/or school, and it's hard to do that from a hospital or at home in a cast.
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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Judodad_karateson
Orange Belt
Joined: 27 May 2015
Posts: 222
Styles: judo, boxing, Karate
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| That's fair, but boxing, kick boxing, judo, MMA, even traditional sports like football have heavy contact with limited injuries. I'm not saying Karate needs full force KO, but turn up the volume a little... |
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on the post.
