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Do you consider TSD and/or TKD as being descended from karate or being the parents of karate?
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Yes |
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84% |
[ 11 ] |
No |
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15% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 13 |
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Message |
bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 13960
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, and I research Medieval Combat
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 Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| YoungMan wrote: |
| So like I said, modern Tae Kwon Do is much more descendant from Tae Kyon than Karate. I tend to agree. |
I don't agree here. I don't think there is enough actual history of Tae Kyon around to know what it was like. I think it has been revived through TKD.
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YoungMan
Blue Belt
Joined: 14 May 2007
Posts: 258
Location: Somewhere in Michigan
Styles: Tae Kwon Do Chung Do Kwan, some Aikido
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:26 am Post subject: |
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I'll tell you something, I've seen numerous clips of Tae Kyon fighters demonstrating kicks, stepping technique, and sparring. Much of what they do is eerily similar, if not exactly like how our organization practiced.
Our organization is Chung Do Kwan, if that means anything. Now, some say that Chung Do Kwan is merely Shotokan transplanted to Korea. But I'm telling you the things I saw Tae Kyon students do, and the way they did them, struck me as being very similar to the way we did things: kicking, stepping, sparring.
Nothing Japanese about them.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 13960
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:21 am Post subject: |
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I agree that the Tae Kyon students don't perform like Shotokan students. Neither do many WTF TKD practitioners. TKD, especially the sparring, has evolved into its own creature.
What I am saying is that I think that the Tae Kyon practitioners you see today and the TKD WTF practitioners look very similar because Tae Kyon is feeding off of the way WTF TKD practioners train their many different spinning and jumping kicks, along with the stepping from the sparring. I think that the "revival" of Tae Kyon is heavily influenced by the evolution of TKD.
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YoungMan
Blue Belt
Joined: 14 May 2007
Posts: 258
Location: Somewhere in Michigan
Styles: Tae Kwon Do Chung Do Kwan, some Aikido
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:38 am Post subject: |
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I would agree with that. The two have undoubtably heavily influenced each other. But that's also something that differentiates Tae Kwon Do from, say, Japanese or Okinawan karate.
Karate is essentially the same as it was 50 years ago. It doesn't change. Tae Kwon Do, especially Kukkiwon Tae Kwon Do, is markedly different than it was 50 years. One of my theories about this is that the second generations and later instructors made a conscious decision to get rid of the Japanese influences and embrace the Korean influences that they could now openly practice.
I have seen pictures of Kim Soo pacticing with Tae Kyon students. If that happened, who's to say other Tae Kyon techniques and methodologies weren't taken as well.
For instance, I've seen clips of the Tae Kyon front kicks, push kicks, back roundhouse/spinning heel kick, jumping kicks, wheel kicks, and side kicks on YouTube. They look exactly like how we do kicking. Which means, somewhere along the way, Tae Kyon technique was reintroduced into Tae Kwon Do. Because Japanese styles don't do things like that.
Now whether or not those technqiues were always there or consciously introduced later is a matter of debate.
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DWx
KF Sensei
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 1318
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
I agree that the Tae Kyon students don't perform like Shotokan students. Neither do many WTF TKD practitioners. TKD, especially the sparring, has evolved into its own creature.
What I am saying is that I think that the Tae Kyon practitioners you see today and the TKD WTF practitioners look very similar because Tae Kyon is feeding off of the way WTF TKD practioners train their many different spinning and jumping kicks, along with the stepping from the sparring. I think that the "revival" of Tae Kyon is heavily influenced by the evolution of TKD. |
I agree with this line of thought. Under Japanese occupation Tae Kyon virtually died out. The Japanese did not want the Koreans to learn how to fight as it would aid resistance efforts. Modern Tae Kyon was more likely to be reborn from Tae Kwon Do; ie. Tae Kyon copied TKD techniques not the other way around. TKD has way more kicking than Karate but that doesn't mean that it had to come from Tae Kyon. Its likely that there is a fair amount of Chinese influence in that area rather than the Tae Kyon influence. I would have thought also that whatever Tae Kyon techniques that survived were refined as although their orignial purpose was martial, as it became a game, the main objective was not to cause great inury, just to cause the opponent to loose balance or to tap them on the head.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 13960
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| YoungMan wrote: |
I would agree with that. The two have undoubtably heavily influenced each other. But that's also something that differentiates Tae Kwon Do from, say, Japanese or Okinawan karate.
Karate is essentially the same as it was 50 years ago. It doesn't change. Tae Kwon Do, especially Kukkiwon Tae Kwon Do, is markedly different than it was 50 years. One of my theories about this is that the second generations and later instructors made a conscious decision to get rid of the Japanese influences and embrace the Korean influences that they could now openly practice.
I have seen pictures of Kim Soo pacticing with Tae Kyon students. If that happened, who's to say other Tae Kyon techniques and methodologies weren't taken as well.
For instance, I've seen clips of the Tae Kyon front kicks, push kicks, back roundhouse/spinning heel kick, jumping kicks, wheel kicks, and side kicks on YouTube. They look exactly like how we do kicking. Which means, somewhere along the way, Tae Kyon technique was reintroduced into Tae Kwon Do. Because Japanese styles don't do things like that.
Now whether or not those technqiues were always there or consciously introduced later is a matter of debate. |
I agree. Especially about the part of the quote that I bold-faced.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 13960
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| DWx wrote: |
| Under Japanese occupation Tae Kyon virtually died out. The Japanese did not want the Koreans to learn how to fight as it would aid resistance efforts. Modern Tae Kyon was more likely to be reborn from Tae Kwon Do; ie. Tae Kyon copied TKD techniques not the other way around. TKD has way more kicking than Karate but that doesn't mean that it had to come from Tae Kyon. |
I think you are on the right track here. I think that many of the kicking techniques that we see in TKD have a root in Karate, but were eventually modified, and then emphasized in the training. I do think that this was a good thing for TKD as well.
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SageGhost
White Belt
Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 8
Location: Virginia
Styles: Shotokan, Togakure-Ryu, Taekwondo
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| Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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Holy crap! Youngman, I didn't know that you were on here! Small world, my friend! I decided to join this forum and wow, there is somebody that I know on here. Hmmm, the ole' Karate and TKD question, eh? TKD came from Japanese/Okinawan Karate. Early TKD was an exact replica of Shotokan, it even used karate gi's and contained the same exact katas. Of course, TKD has changed and evolved into something different and original now, but the connection is definitely there and clear for all to see. Hmmm, DWx - you are totally correct, the Taekkyon headquarters in Korea denies any link with TKD and they would know more about Taekkyon than the Kukkiwon seeing as how its their own style and all. Most of the "history" of TKD is propaganda put forth in an attempt to deny the Japanese connection because Koreans don't like Japanese. Not to mention the new forms created (I.E. remixed from the Japanese/Okinawan versions and called something new) on the basis of nationalism and Korean history. Can you say Martial Xenophobia? The two styles contain the same techs too - yes, Karate contains every kick contained in TKD, they are just not practiced or emphasized as much as in TKD. Tournament Karate even contains high flying kicks, itself. Youngman, it is not to say that all TKD is a Korean version of Japanese Karate, it is to say that *both* styles are brothers who have a common origin in Okinawa. Think of Okinawa Karate as the father, and Japanese Karate and TKD (even called Korean Karate at one point) as the sons of the father, and brothers to each other.
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ps1
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 1713
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ
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| Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| YoungMan wrote: |
So like I said, modern Tae Kwon Do is much more descendant from Tae Kyon than Karate. I tend to agree. The second generation of Instructors consciously removed the Japanese influences and emphasized the Korean aspects (movement, kicking, steps etc.).
I saw an interesting clip of Kukkiwon black belts practicing, and they moved almost exactly like Tae Kyon fighters. Conversely, I saw a clip of Tae Kyon fighters sparring, and they moved and fought almost exactly like Tae Kwon Do students. |
George Anderson is a 9th degree Black Belt under the kukkikwon. He is the head of the Central TKD association, which falls under the Kwanmukan. All of the primary forms and Ippon kumite (one step sparring) is from the shotokan system. If TKD is so different...why would they promote him to 9th when he teaches Karate?
My 3rd degree certificate under him says Kwanmukan, Shotokan, and Central TKD Association. That one black belt is good in TKD (although I do not claim it because I think that's a crock) as well as Shotokan. But that's a Kukkikwon recognized rank. All the rank requirements, however, are very similar to JKA.
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Kagerou
White Belt
Joined: 24 May 2008
Posts: 18
Location: NW Georgia, USA
Styles: United Karate
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:10 am Post subject: |
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[quote="ps1"]
| YoungMan wrote: |
George Anderson is a 9th degree Black Belt under the kukkikwon. He is the head of the Central TKD association, which falls under the Kwanmukan. All of the primary forms and Ippon kumite (one step sparring) is from the shotokan system. If TKD is so different...why would they promote him to 9th when he teaches Karate?
My 3rd degree certificate under him says Kwanmukan, Shotokan, and Central TKD Association. That one black belt is good in TKD (although I do not claim it because I think that's a crock) as well as Shotokan. But that's a Kukkikwon recognized rank. All the rank requirements, however, are very similar to JKA. |
I'm unsure about Mr. Anderson, but you, yourself, have all the makings of a Chang Moo Kwan Tae Kwon Do/Kwan Bup Bu instructor with your background in Shotokan and Chaun Fa.
At least, from what I've been reading on Chang Moo Kwan.
I'll be darned if I can't find an unbiased/non-politicized master of the forms though. |
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on the post.
