|
|
| Author |
Message |
pers
Purple Belt
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 503
Location: England
Styles: shotokan
|
 Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 2:19 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
Karate without kata is not karate ...it is kick boxing or something on that line , nothing wrong with that at all ,it is just not karate .
_________________
never give up ! |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16424
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
|
| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 11:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| pers wrote: |
| Karate without kata is not karate ...it is kick boxing or something on that line , nothing wrong with that at all ,it is just not karate . |
It's akin with having a chair that instead of having 3 solid legs for support, it now only has 2 wobbly legs for support; not my cup of tea.
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GojuRyu Bahrain
Orange Belt
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 125
Styles: Goju Ryu, Shotokan, Kobudo, Uechi Ryu
|
| Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 9:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
Wow, this is an extensive discussion with many good points for and against Kata made. I think Kata are essential to Karate, and here is why:
Without doubt, Karate techniques and strategies have to be learned and refined with a partner. The drills can come from a qualified instructor without ever referencing Kata to the students. Modern fighting arts without Kata are abundant and arguably faster to learn to an effective level (for fighting) compared to Karate (fighting and self defense are different things, though, but that's a different topic). The question is: Will they last? How are these drills recorded? As has been pointed out here before, modern forms of recording are available today: Books, videos, podcasts etc.., but I doubt these forms will outlive their inventor in the long run. The drills will change from instructor to instructor until the original concept is no longer contained.
On the other hand, during my travels abroad I have met people from a different lineage (We all did Goju Ryu, but lineages had branched off back in Okinawa times, as far as we could trace it, without interactions between each other). Both lineages encourage individual study, development, and practice of practical Bunkai (practical for civilian self defense scenarios) based on the Kata. We trained well together and began exchanging our favorite Bunkais. Of course there were little and large differences in the performance of the Kata, BUT the amazing thing was that we had (independently) found the same core strategies and very similar applications (i.e. the exact same locks, hidden throws etc..) despite the fact that our lineages had split about 8 decades ago. To me, this shows how extremely well Katas codify and preserve self defense strategies and techniques, provided someone puts in the effort to disassemble and analyze them.
Although Karate without Kata seems easily conceivable (for a few decades), Kata is the DNA of Karate: An excellent medium for storing fundamental combat strategy over long periods of time, tested and refined, to give future Karate generations the same chance, joy and task in studying it.
Even if one or two generations of "Master Teachers" have omitted applications completely (like in modern Shotokan) the original core concepts are still available and ready to be revived. I think that is pretty cool!
_________________
------------
Goju Ryu (Yushinkan since 1989), Shotokan (JKA since 2005) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Harkon72
Black Belt
Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 1875
Location: Wales
Styles: Okinawan Karate, Aikido, Ninpo.
|
| Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 1:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Great Reply! I too think that Karate is not Karate without the three K's. And Kata for me is the Soul of my Karatedo.
_________________
Look to the far mountain and see all. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16424
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| GojuRyu Bahrain wrote: |
Wow, this is an extensive discussion with many good points for and against Kata made. I think Kata are essential to Karate, and here is why:
Without doubt, Karate techniques and strategies have to be learned and refined with a partner. The drills can come from a qualified instructor without ever referencing Kata to the students. Modern fighting arts without Kata are abundant and arguably faster to learn to an effective level (for fighting) compared to Karate (fighting and self defense are different things, though, but that's a different topic). The question is: Will they last? How are these drills recorded? As has been pointed out here before, modern forms of recording are available today: Books, videos, podcasts etc.., but I doubt these forms will outlive their inventor in the long run. The drills will change from instructor to instructor until the original concept is no longer contained.
On the other hand, during my travels abroad I have met people from a different lineage (We all did Goju Ryu, but lineages had branched off back in Okinawa times, as far as we could trace it, without interactions between each other). Both lineages encourage individual study, development, and practice of practical Bunkai (practical for civilian self defense scenarios) based on the Kata. We trained well together and began exchanging our favorite Bunkais. Of course there were little and large differences in the performance of the Kata, BUT the amazing thing was that we had (independently) found the same core strategies and very similar applications (i.e. the exact same locks, hidden throws etc..) despite the fact that our lineages had split about 8 decades ago. To me, this shows how extremely well Katas codify and preserve self defense strategies and techniques, provided someone puts in the effort to disassemble and analyze them.
Although Karate without Kata seems easily conceivable (for a few decades), Kata is the DNA of Karate: An excellent medium for storing fundamental combat strategy over long periods of time, tested and refined, to give future Karate generations the same chance, joy and task in studying it.
Even if one or two generations of "Master Teachers" have omitted applications completely (like in modern Shotokan) the original core concepts are still available and ready to be revived. I think that is pretty cool! |
Great post!!
The bold type above, imho, speaks strongly just that...Kata is essential TO Karate, and I believe that that needs to be understood.
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Stefano123
White Belt
Joined: 28 Jun 2013
Posts: 21
Styles: Shotokan
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:52 am Post subject: Re: Karate without Kata? |
|
|
| SAAMAG wrote: |
So as one of my first posts in this forum, I wish to pose a theoretical question to you all:
Is there such a thing as Karate without Kata? By that, can you learn karate techniques and movement with simply kihon and kumite? |
Yes you can, but kata is the heart of karate, and actually, without kata, you can't really do karate. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16424
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: Karate without Kata? |
|
|
| Stefano123 wrote: |
| SAAMAG wrote: |
So as one of my first posts in this forum, I wish to pose a theoretical question to you all:
Is there such a thing as Karate without Kata? By that, can you learn karate techniques and movement with simply kihon and kumite? |
Yes you can, but kata is the heart of karate, and actually, without kata, you can't really do karate. |
And in that, you can't do karate, imho, if there's no kihon and kumite as well.
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The thing with any style using forms, in my opinion, is keeping it all in perspective. I don't think that forms are the heart of Karate, or of TKD for that matter. The self-defense applications are. One can only learn so much from kata. What is more important than kata in any Martial Art, is having training partners to work on the applications with, to bounce ideas back and forth, and to make each other better.
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KyokanRik
White Belt
Joined: 15 Sep 2013
Posts: 13
Location: U.S.A.
Styles: Kyokushin Karate
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I am in no way the authority on Karate, being just a beginner myself. But I do believe that basic common sense and logic tells us all that while kata may or may not make Karate "true" Karate, it is definitely not essential or neccessary for the development of the fruits we all strive to reap from the Art. Especially in the fighting/self defense aspect, as is proven by other Martial Arts without kata and even the now popular sport of MMA. I highly doubt that a Karate master of whatever Dan would have a better chance of survival in a real life combative situation than say an MMA practicioner in the same situation; which then begs the question, is it just a waste of time? I believe the answer is that it depends upon what the individual is seeking from the experience of training in Karate.
_________________
"Welcome to Cafe Karma, there is no menu, you get served what you deserve. Bon apetit!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
on the post.
