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Semaj
Yellow Belt
Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 42
Location: Chicago
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 Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| I think it is good in self defense cuz you can scare the hell out of the aggressor. I also find it helps if you exhale when physically active, and screams work (look at women's tennis!) |
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Ottman
Blue Belt
Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 346
Location: Boston
Styles: Tae Kwon Do, Jeet Kune Do (Concepts), Brazilian Ju Jitsu, Capoeira, Samurai combative arts (Nami Ryu Aiki Heiho)
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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I think we've covered about every possible use of the kiai in this thread, and it all goes back to what you're comfortable doing. Someone mentioned that mike Tyson and other boxers don't kiai, but still generate a ton of power. I'll admit I very rarely hear a boxer kiai, but most of them exhale pretty loudly and forcefully while striking and this is the same principal as kiaing. It pushes the air out of your lungs and in the process tenses a lot of muscles that would otherwise not be tensed. This doesn't necessarily mean that there is more power in the attack (although I've heard of studies saying that it can lead to up to 12% more power.) What it does do is focus all of your body's muscles into supporting your strike, and that, I'd assume, would be pretty effective at generating more power, or at least creating a more rigid feeling to the strike as your muscles are all very hard and tense as already described.
Also, in the process of pushing all that air out of your lungs, this makes it a lot harder for a strike to knock the wind out of you, (because all of your air is already pushed out) and thus the kiai is probably helpful as a defensive technique as well.
While most of us here are experienced and confident enough not to be intimidated by loud noises, as I tell my younger students, most of the time a bully just needs to know that you're not scared of him, and therefore kiaing and going into a guarded, ready stance, may stop the bully from attacking, as they are certainly not looking to be beaten and embarrassed.
I save kiai's for those perfect times when I've caught my opponent off guard and want to emphasize my attack. Whether I actually strike them hard or not is irrelevant. The kiai always makes them flinch as they realize how open they left them self. It's useful in this way as an instructor as I can really let my students know, without hitting them hard, where their mistakes are in sparring.
(Very useful in breaking too, as others have said, both before the strike and at the point of contact.)
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Tae Kwon Do - 3rd Dan, Instructor
Brazilian Ju Jitsu - Purple Belt, Level 1 Instructor |
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cross
Black Belt
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1874
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:43 am Post subject: |
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[quote]I think it is good in self defense cuz you can scare the hell out of the aggressor.[quote]
It may just be me, but if was intent on attacking someone for whatever reason, a kiai would not be scary at all, if anything it would invoke laughter and then make me more aggressive towards the person. |
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ninjanurse
KF Sensei
Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Posts: 3989
Location: Upstate NY
Styles: TKD;Shotokan;JuJitsu;Tai Ji
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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All good posts regarding kihaps! Here is another idea: Generally, when students kiap at the appropriate time they are training their bodies to breathe efficiently-just as they are when they count out-loud during pushups or situps, etc. At higher ranks you can teach them a "silent kihap" provided they are proficient at breathing skills.
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"A Black Belt is only the beginning."
Heidi-A student of the arts
Tae Kwon Do,Shotokan,JuJitsu,TaiJi |
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NightOwl
KF Sempai
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 988
Location: Japan
Styles: This and that, Rookie Judo
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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Right, but the point is that you don't need to do an extra loud yell for good breathing. It may help for extra hard blows, but for regular punches and it is somewhat inefficient to kiai every time.
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Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
~Theodore Roosevelt |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 13960
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| NightOwl wrote: |
| Right, but the point is that you don't need to do an extra loud yell for good breathing. It may help for extra hard blows, but for regular punches and it is somewhat inefficient to kiai every time. |
We do a lot of kiahping in our traditional classes with basics. I am sure that it helps some of the younger students to regulate their breathing, but I could do without so much of it. We do it so much that it loses its point.
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Success is where preparation meets opportunity.
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NightOwl
KF Sempai
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 988
Location: Japan
Styles: This and that, Rookie Judo
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| NightOwl wrote: |
| Right, but the point is that you don't need to do an extra loud yell for good breathing. It may help for extra hard blows, but for regular punches and it is somewhat inefficient to kiai every time. |
We do a lot of kiahping in our traditional classes with basics. I am sure that it helps some of the younger students to regulate their breathing, but I could do without so much of it. We do it so much that it loses its point. |
Exactly. If you suddenly go full force on your opponent with a HUGE kiai...that can be intimidating. Constant yelling however just makes it pointless.
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Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
~Theodore Roosevelt |
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Ottman
Blue Belt
Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 346
Location: Boston
Styles: Tae Kwon Do, Jeet Kune Do (Concepts), Brazilian Ju Jitsu, Capoeira, Samurai combative arts (Nami Ryu Aiki Heiho)
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| NightOwl wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| NightOwl wrote: |
| Right, but the point is that you don't need to do an extra loud yell for good breathing. It may help for extra hard blows, but for regular punches and it is somewhat inefficient to kiai every time. |
We do a lot of kiahping in our traditional classes with basics. I am sure that it helps some of the younger students to regulate their breathing, but I could do without so much of it. We do it so much that it loses its point. |
Exactly. If you suddenly go full force on your opponent with a HUGE kiai...that can be intimidating. Constant yelling however just makes it pointless. |
Absolutely. Students get complacent about it if they're expected to kiai on every movement. The kiai loses it's power then. Students just start saying 'hup' with no emotion, and no purpose. It's sad to hear the death of the kiai. 
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Tae Kwon Do - 3rd Dan, Instructor
Brazilian Ju Jitsu - Purple Belt, Level 1 Instructor |
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ninjer
Yellow Belt
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| Ottman wrote: |
I think we've covered about every possible use of the kiai in this thread, and it all goes back to what you're comfortable doing. Someone mentioned that mike Tyson and other boxers don't kiai, but still generate a ton of power. I'll admit I very rarely hear a boxer kiai, but most of them exhale pretty loudly and forcefully while striking and this is the same principal as kiaing. It pushes the air out of your lungs and in the process tenses a lot of muscles that would otherwise not be tensed. This doesn't necessarily mean that there is more power in the attack (although I've heard of studies saying that it can lead to up to 12% more power.) What it does do is focus all of your body's muscles into supporting your strike, and that, I'd assume, would be pretty effective at generating more power, or at least creating a more rigid feeling to the strike as your muscles are all very hard and tense as already described.
Also, in the process of pushing all that air out of your lungs, this makes it a lot harder for a strike to knock the wind out of you, (because all of your air is already pushed out) and thus the kiai is probably helpful as a defensive technique as well.
While most of us here are experienced and confident enough not to be intimidated by loud noises, as I tell my younger students, most of the time a bully just needs to know that you're not scared of him, and therefore kiaing and going into a guarded, ready stance, may stop the bully from attacking, as they are certainly not looking to be beaten and embarrassed.
I save kiai's for those perfect times when I've caught my opponent off guard and want to emphasize my attack. Whether I actually strike them hard or not is irrelevant. The kiai always makes them flinch as they realize how open they left them self. It's useful in this way as an instructor as I can really let my students know, without hitting them hard, where their mistakes are in sparring.
(Very useful in breaking too, as others have said, both before the strike and at the point of contact.) |
The difference between a boxer exhaling through his nose and a karate guy kiai'ing is that the boxer still has his jaw tightly shut. When you punch, expect to be punched back hence the reason for the exhaling. This tenses up the muscles of the boxer and prepares him for his opponents incoming attack. If you're kiai'ing and that attack happens to his you near your jaw, you're most likely going out. |
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Ottman
Blue Belt
Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 346
Location: Boston
Styles: Tae Kwon Do, Jeet Kune Do (Concepts), Brazilian Ju Jitsu, Capoeira, Samurai combative arts (Nami Ryu Aiki Heiho)
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:13 am Post subject: |
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Good clarification ninjer. Thanks. Goes back to kiais being used defensively, which I am very much in favor of. 
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Tae Kwon Do - 3rd Dan, Instructor
Brazilian Ju Jitsu - Purple Belt, Level 1 Instructor |
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on the post.
