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shimizu
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 31 Mar 2012
Posts: 39
Location: England
Styles: Shukokai Karate (and ITF Tae Kwon-Do)

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 2:23 pm    Post subject: shuto uke Reply with quote

MasterPain wrote:
I can't understand why these things are ever taught separate from their application. Looks more like an attack than a block to me.

shuto uke is knife hand block, however shuto uchi is knife hand strike - they are different as a block comes from a different part of the body moving in a certain way that is different from the strike which comes from another place to ensure maximum damage
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Wastelander
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Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 682
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shuri-Ryu, Shorin-Ryu, Kobudo, Iaijutsu, Judo

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:51 pm    Post subject: Re: shuto uke Reply with quote

shimizu wrote:
MasterPain wrote:
I can't understand why these things are ever taught separate from their application. Looks more like an attack than a block to me.

shuto uke is knife hand block, however shuto uchi is knife hand strike - they are different as a block comes from a different part of the body moving in a certain way that is different from the strike which comes from another place to ensure maximum damage


I respectfully disagree, actually. In your style it may be important to perform them differently, but in my dojo we do not make the same distinction during kihon practice or kata. In the air, a shuto is a shuto--it only becomes a shuto-uke if we are actually using it to receive a technique, and it only becomes a shuto-uchi if we are actually using it to strike. We generally call it shuto-uke for simplicity's sake when beginners or people from other styles are around, but the more advanced students tend to just call it a shuto unless we are actually applying it as an uke or uchi at that moment.
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 5145
Location: Owasso, OK and Van Nuys, CA
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Re: shuto uke Reply with quote

Wastelander wrote:
shimizu wrote:
MasterPain wrote:
I can't understand why these things are ever taught separate from their application. Looks more like an attack than a block to me.

shuto uke is knife hand block, however shuto uchi is knife hand strike - they are different as a block comes from a different part of the body moving in a certain way that is different from the strike which comes from another place to ensure maximum damage


I respectfully disagree, actually. In your style it may be important to perform them differently, but in my dojo we do not make the same distinction during kihon practice or kata. In the air, a shuto is a shuto--it only becomes a shuto-uke if we are actually using it to receive a technique, and it only becomes a shuto-uchi if we are actually using it to strike. We generally call it shuto-uke for simplicity's sake when beginners or people from other styles are around, but the more advanced students tend to just call it a shuto unless we are actually applying it as an uke or uchi at that moment.

Quite SOLID post!!


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shadowspawn
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Joined: 09 Mar 2012
Posts: 108


PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ours comes downward at an angle with the blocking hand starting as high up as we can raise it while still keeping it behind our head. Application is that coming down at an attack increases the momentum behind it due to gravitational force. It also trains students for a followup grab of the arm by getting them to instinctively use gravity and their hips to strike downwards with an open hand so when they apply it in sparring, it becomes a lot easier to understand.

As per hand starting positions, we use both, or rather we have used both at various points in time. We originally started with the hand up, hand down method with the intention of the downed hand covering the relatively large opening created when lifting your arm so high above your head (same mentality that we use for our gedan barai). The both hands up method allows your hips to more easily get into the motion since both hands are moving in the same direction. And because of the lack of a pulling hand, there's no resistance to the hip rotation when performing the technique. Both have their applications depending on what your intention is and none are inherently wrong. The only "wrong" way I see people doing an open hand block is by extending their arm and blocking with only the area from the fingertip to the base of the palm rather than from the fingertip to the elbow. For one thing, it leaves a huge margin of error that can easily have you missing the strike completely. Another thing is that leaving your hand so far out from your body makes it extremely easy to lose control of that hand if it were to be grabbed. Another is that you should never have to reach that far out to deflect an incoming attack unless you're like a 4 foot person up against an 8 foot tall giant (and even then, good luck generating enough leverage with your arm extended so far). If anyone can explain to me a significant benefit for blocking in such a way, please share because I honestly see absolutely no practical use for such a technique outside of an eye rake.
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Open minded
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Joined: 29 May 2012
Posts: 53
Location: England
Styles: Karate, judo, jujitsu, ninjisu, wing chun kung fu, JKD, MMA, Aikido, Boxing, Kick Boxing, street fighting, tai chi

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any block is my favourite block if it defends me!

The best way to defend is attack
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straightblast
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Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 129

Styles: close quarter combat

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't like the term "block". we are really striking the incoming limb. I either strike the attack with a shuto or parry the attack and strike the neck.

Take the rising block for example, think of using it as a jab, quickly rising and striking the undside the the arm then returning. Can be very painful for the attacker.

I have stopped using the blocks as in the traditional way of locking the block out and use them as you would a strike or kick.

Regards
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Montana
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Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 632
Location: Formerly Montana, now Spokane, WA
Styles: Shorin Ryu Matsumura Kenpo & Kobudo

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 8:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Knife hand block. Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Martial Walrus wrote:
The knife hand block is one of my favorite techniques. I've noticed how different styles teach it differently. In Shotokan, the guarding hand starts extended in front, then is drawn back to cover the body while the blocking hand comes forward. In Kyokushin and most Korean styles I've seen, the guarding hand starts behind and is brought forward to cover the body as the blocking hand comes forward. Also, the blocking hand moves in a straight line in some styles, while it moves in a sort of overhand arc in others. Can someone explain the significance of these differences and how they effect application?

Methodology...it's a wonderful thing.

Our knife hand waza's are quite compact; no big wind-ups or the like. Everything in Shindokan is kept compact as our Tuite requires it.

Shortest path between two points is a straight line.



Same as Shorin Ryu...short, compact, strike, grab or block, all done the same.
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Location: Owasso, OK and Van Nuys, CA
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

straightblast wrote:
I don't like the term "block". we are really striking the incoming limb. I either strike the attack with a shuto or parry the attack and strike the neck.

Take the rising block for example, think of using it as a jab, quickly rising and striking the undside the the arm then returning. Can be very painful for the attacker.

I have stopped using the blocks as in the traditional way of locking the block out and use them as you would a strike or kick.

Regards

In Shindokan, we don't block...we deflect.


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bushido_man96
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 22974
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, and I research Medieval Combat

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
straightblast wrote:
I don't like the term "block". we are really striking the incoming limb. I either strike the attack with a shuto or parry the attack and strike the neck.

Take the rising block for example, think of using it as a jab, quickly rising and striking the undside the the arm then returning. Can be very painful for the attacker.

I have stopped using the blocks as in the traditional way of locking the block out and use them as you would a strike or kick.

Regards

In Shindokan, we don't block...we deflect.

Yeah, you deflect people to the other side of the room!
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 5145
Location: Owasso, OK and Van Nuys, CA
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
straightblast wrote:
I don't like the term "block". we are really striking the incoming limb. I either strike the attack with a shuto or parry the attack and strike the neck.

Take the rising block for example, think of using it as a jab, quickly rising and striking the undside the the arm then returning. Can be very painful for the attacker.

I have stopped using the blocks as in the traditional way of locking the block out and use them as you would a strike or kick.

Regards

In Shindokan, we don't block...we deflect.

Yeah, you deflect people to the other side of the room!

ROFL And I enjoy it quite a lot; better them than me!!


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