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Martial Walrus
Yellow Belt
Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 41
Styles: Moo Do Tae Kwon Do
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 Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:39 am Post subject: Knife hand block. |
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The knife hand block is one of my favorite techniques. I've noticed how different styles teach it differently. In Shotokan, the guarding hand starts extended in front, then is drawn back to cover the body while the blocking hand comes forward. In Kyokushin and most Korean styles I've seen, the guarding hand starts behind and is brought forward to cover the body as the blocking hand comes forward. Also, the blocking hand moves in a straight line in some styles, while it moves in a sort of overhand arc in others. Can someone explain the significance of these differences and how they effect application?
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"I have mastered the greatest technique of all: Being much bigger than my opponent."
"The hammer fist solves EVERYTHING!" |
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MasterPain
Black Belt
Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 1824
Location: Parts Unknown
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Psycho Drive and Spanish Ninjitsu
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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I can't understand why these things are ever taught separate from their application. Looks more like an attack than a block to me.
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Master Pain, maybe I was a little slow to react, but my flabber hadn't been so gasted! -Harkon72 |
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Martial Walrus
Yellow Belt
Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 41
Styles: Moo Do Tae Kwon Do
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| MasterPain wrote: |
| I can't understand why these things are ever taught separate from their application. Looks more like an attack than a block to me. |
It's both. In Taekwondo and Karate, most blocks are actually modified strikes. They can be used to either defend or to attack, depending on the distance.
I understand the application of the knife hand block for my own style. I'm asking for someone to explain how the differences between different ways of executing it effect application. Is it because it is meant to be used differently, or simply a matter of preference?
_________________
"I have mastered the greatest technique of all: Being much bigger than my opponent."
"The hammer fist solves EVERYTHING!" |
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davehale
White Belt
Joined: 13 Jan 2012
Posts: 17
Styles: Shotokan, Goju ryu
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| When I practiced Shotokan, my sensei would say to think of the knife hand block as "attacking the attack" while my Goju sensei would say "ensnaring the attack." |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 22974
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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In my current TKD style, the knife hand block tends to start with both arms crossed, the knife hand on the inside, for both blocking or striking, if I recall correctly. I like to consider the crossing of the arms as an initial "guarding" or "protecting" defensive position, similar to what Iain Abernethy demonstrates in his applications, prior to the striking hand either striking or doing some other application.
When I was in the ATA, we always did "blocks on bottom, strikes on top." That is, the arms crossed parallel to each other, instead of crossing like an X, and to make things consistent for students and instructors, blocking arms were crossed on the bottom, and striking arms were crossed on the top. Less application there, in my mind, and more of a technical aspect.
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Wastelander
KF Sempai
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 673
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shuri-Ryu, Shorin-Ryu, Kobudo, Iaijutsu, Judo
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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In Shuri-Ryu we brought both hands back to the ear and then executed the knife hand, but in Shorin-Ryu I actually haven't been given any solid direction beyond "depends what you are doing" so watching me run kata with knife hands in it is interesting  . The way I look at it is this: the way you execute it depends on what you are doing with it, and since you can do a LOT of things with it you are going to see a LOT of variation in how to do it in the air.
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Shorin-Ryu | 2010-Present: Nikyu
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu
http://budonokaizen.blogspot.com
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Martial Walrus
Yellow Belt
Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 41
Styles: Moo Do Tae Kwon Do
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| davehale wrote: |
| When I practiced Shotokan, my sensei would say to think of the knife hand block as "attacking the attack" while my Goju sensei would say "ensnaring the attack." |
Given what I know of those styles, I don't find that surprising. That would explain the more circular nature of Goju blocks. Strangely, I have always been taught to use the knife hand block more as an attack against my opponents attacking arm than as a way to ensnare it, yet I've also been told to make it a more circular movement.
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
In my current TKD style, the knife hand block tends to start with both arms crossed, the knife hand on the inside, for both blocking or striking, if I recall correctly. I like to consider the crossing of the arms as an initial "guarding" or "protecting" defensive position, similar to what Iain Abernethy demonstrates in his applications, prior to the striking hand either striking or doing some other application.
When I was in the ATA, we always did "blocks on bottom, strikes on top." That is, the arms crossed parallel to each other, instead of crossing like an X, and to make things consistent for students and instructors, blocking arms were crossed on the bottom, and striking arms were crossed on the top. Less application there, in my mind, and more of a technical aspect. |
The way your current style does it is how mine also does a single-knife hand block/strike. What about the double knife hand (i.e., when the non-blocking hand is used to cover the solar-plyxus instead of being pulled back to a chambered position). Do you begin with that hand in front and bring it back, or with it behind and swing it forward with the blocking hand?
I find the "strikes on top, blocks on bottom" idea strange. I've always been taught to start from the opposite of were my hand is moving. If I am blocking upward, start below. If I am blocking downwards, start above. For middle blocks, whether it is above or below depends on the specific block and how it is being used.
| Wastelander wrote: |
| In Shuri-Ryu we brought both hands back to the ear and then executed the knife hand, but in Shorin-Ryu I actually haven't been given any solid direction beyond "depends what you are doing" so watching me run kata with knife hands in it is interesting . The way I look at it is this: the way you execute it depends on what you are doing with it, and since you can do a LOT of things with it you are going to see a LOT of variation in how to do it in the air. |
The way you were taught in Shuri-Ryu is similar to how I've been taught in Tae Kwon Do. I agree with your point about the many different ways of doing it. I also should have specified the type of knife hand block I meant (the inside to outside knife hand block with the rear hand guarding the body), since there are many different types that all have clearly different purposes. However, even the same type of block will be a little different based on the context. Still, I'm curious about how and why different styles do it differently.
_________________
"I have mastered the greatest technique of all: Being much bigger than my opponent."
"The hammer fist solves EVERYTHING!" |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 22974
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Martial Walrus wrote: |
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
In my current TKD style, the knife hand block tends to start with both arms crossed, the knife hand on the inside, for both blocking or striking, if I recall correctly. I like to consider the crossing of the arms as an initial "guarding" or "protecting" defensive position, similar to what Iain Abernethy demonstrates in his applications, prior to the striking hand either striking or doing some other application.
When I was in the ATA, we always did "blocks on bottom, strikes on top." That is, the arms crossed parallel to each other, instead of crossing like an X, and to make things consistent for students and instructors, blocking arms were crossed on the bottom, and striking arms were crossed on the top. Less application there, in my mind, and more of a technical aspect. |
The way your current style does it is how mine also does a single-knife hand block/strike. What about the double knife hand (i.e., when the non-blocking hand is used to cover the solar-plyxus instead of being pulled back to a chambered position). Do you begin with that hand in front and bring it back, or with it behind and swing it forward with the blocking hand? |
Double blocks, like double knifehand block or double forearm block, start with both hands back, and both come forward.
| Martial Walrus wrote: |
| I find the "strikes on top, blocks on bottom" idea strange. I've always been taught to start from the opposite of were my hand is moving. If I am blocking upward, start below. If I am blocking downwards, start above. For middle blocks, whether it is above or below depends on the specific block and how it is being used. |
Sorry, I probably didn't explain this too well. Think about the example of crossing the arms. Same idea, but instead of crossing them, the arms still do the "hugging yourself" type of pre-movement, but instead of crossing, one is above the other. It does allow for a deeper stretch of the pre-movement. Sorry for the confusion. Hope that helps.
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Wastelander
KF Sempai
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 673
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shuri-Ryu, Shorin-Ryu, Kobudo, Iaijutsu, Judo
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Martial Walrus wrote: |
| Wastelander wrote: |
| In Shuri-Ryu we brought both hands back to the ear and then executed the knife hand, but in Shorin-Ryu I actually haven't been given any solid direction beyond "depends what you are doing" so watching me run kata with knife hands in it is interesting . The way I look at it is this: the way you execute it depends on what you are doing with it, and since you can do a LOT of things with it you are going to see a LOT of variation in how to do it in the air. |
The way you were taught in Shuri-Ryu is similar to how I've been taught in Tae Kwon Do. I agree with your point about the many different ways of doing it. I also should have specified the type of knife hand block I meant (the inside to outside knife hand block with the rear hand guarding the body), since there are many different types that all have clearly different purposes. However, even the same type of block will be a little different based on the context. Still, I'm curious about how and why different styles do it differently. |
When both hands pull back to the ear and then shoot outward as we learned in Shuri-Ryu, I have to look at why I would ever have both hands on one side of my head--for me, it would be because I had stepped into a punch or kick and needed to cover that side of my head. After that, I always follow the rule that you never have a hand doing nothing, so the hand that guards the body should be grabbing something (usually the attack I covered my head for) and pulling it out of the way so I can use my knife hand to strike.
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Shorin-Ryu | 2010-Present: Nikyu
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu
http://budonokaizen.blogspot.com
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sensei8
KF Sempai
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 5119
Location: Owasso, OK and Van Nuys, CA
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Knife hand block. |
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| Martial Walrus wrote: |
| The knife hand block is one of my favorite techniques. I've noticed how different styles teach it differently. In Shotokan, the guarding hand starts extended in front, then is drawn back to cover the body while the blocking hand comes forward. In Kyokushin and most Korean styles I've seen, the guarding hand starts behind and is brought forward to cover the body as the blocking hand comes forward. Also, the blocking hand moves in a straight line in some styles, while it moves in a sort of overhand arc in others. Can someone explain the significance of these differences and how they effect application? |
Methodology...it's a wonderful thing.
Our knife hand waza's are quite compact; no big wind-ups or the like. Everything in Shindokan is kept compact as our Tuite requires it.
Shortest path between two points is a straight line.
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on the post.
