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Goju_boi
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Joined: 28 Mar 2005
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Location: Houston , Texas
Styles: Goju ryu , Kobudo , and just started Capoeira

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MenteReligieuse wrote:
White Warlock wrote:

That's the thing about words, you can make ballet sound deadly just by adding in a lot of metaphors and inferences.


Dude, ballet IS deadly. Once, I almost got bored...to DEATH!


lol,same with golf.
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KaKa
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Joined: 11 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am just going to respond to the person that said that Kupigana is a fraud. I have studies both Karate and Kupigana and Kupigana does not have any Karate in it at all. In fact all movement are circular not linear. Kuiganana deal with animal fighting such as "simba" the lion and lions do not come from Asia they come from Africa. Kupigana studies animals that are in their surrounding. In fact the Oriental people are studying an Africa science. Martial arts are for the masses of people not for the elite warrior. The elite warrior will study Kupigana Ngumi which one are you? The Kupigana warrior are "spiritual warriors or warrior priest" not sport fighter. In fact my teacher has probably been studying fighting systems for over 30+ yrs. A quote from my teacher reads "From 1965 to 1968,while attending J.P Stevens High School, I was a county , district and regional champion in wrestling. My team was undefeated and was “State champion” all three years. As a junior and senior, He was “All County” and “All State” Champion in football and track. Team sport kept him in excellent condition for martial arts. From 1967 to 1971, He trained Bondo under the great teacher, Mfundishi Massi. In 1968, He received 36 scholarships as a “Scholar Athlete”, from High school. He attended Norfolk State College, Norfork, Virgin, where He received a Bachelor of Arts in History, specializing in African and African American History. He continued his martial arts training and simultaneously became a “Virginia State Wrestling Champion” for three consecutive years. He also studied Judo while attending Norfolk State. After graduating in 1971, He started training in Chinese Sholin Kung Fu under Grand Master William Chung. He excelled to the level of Eighth Degree Black Belt (red sash), in the Chinese Shaolin Hung Fu Federation.
In 1972, while attending Rutgers University, He pursued His Master Degree in Philosophy of Education, specializing in African studies. In that same year, He began teaching Kung Fu on the Livingston Campus of Rutgers University. In 1978 He founded Black Gold Afrikan Kultural Arts Center in New Brunswick, New Jersey, and started teaching Kupigana Ngumi (African Martial Arts) and African Philosophy. In 1985, He was promoted to Malenga (Physical and Spiritual Leader) in Kupigana Ngumi Afrikan Martial Arts Philosophy. Between 1971 and 1986, He traveled several times to the Afrikan continent with Dr Ben Jochannan, visting Egypt, Sudan and Ethiopia. He has independently traveled extensively throughout east and west Afrika visiting Tanzania, Kenya, Zaire(Congo), Ghana,Nigeria,Togo, Benin,IvoryCoast,Senegal, Gambia and many others(a total of 23 countries to date). During his travels, He continued to study, history, ourstory, religion, spirituality, philosophy and martial arts. while keeping abreast with his martial arts, He attained over 150 trophies and became "Grand Champion" over 15 times in fighting,5 times in weapons and 21 times in form or Kata, in the Americas, Caribbean Islands and abroad. In 1987, He performed before the Royal Court in Ethiopia, as well as studied with a Coptic Priest and was awarded a special sword from the family of Haile Selassie as a “Warrior Priest”. The person that replies with English names knows their America name. I would like for that person to tell me what do their Afrikan names mean? Or can that person tell me how many names were given to "Nsut Bitty"? Again Kupigan Nugumi is a vast science. In 1989, He began teaching Kupigana Ngumi in New York City. On his 40th Earth day He became a Makondae Chief in Tanzania, His homeland, and also that same year a Nana Chief among the Ashante in Ghana, in 1993, the Kupigana Ngumi Pan Afrakan Federation promoted him to the rank of Mfundishi, Grand Master in the Afrakan Martial Arts.If you are interested in finding out more call me at 718.467.1304
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White Warlock
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Joined: 14 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to add that Hu Ren Qianzai Long, a poster on another forum, also indicates that this system is a neo-African style. His post, which provides a cursory listing of actual African and neo-African arts, is very informative and on topic.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12661
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Patrick
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

We removed a post from this thread in error. It is quoted below and went before the last post. Sorry for the confusion. Thanks.

White Warlock wrote:
KaKa wrote:
I am just going to respond to the person that said that Kupigana is a fraud. I have studies both Karate and Kupigana and Kupigana does not have any Karate in it at all.

What form of karate do you study? Also, are you aware that some Okinawan presentations of karate incorporate quite a bit of circular movement?

Quote:
In fact all movement are circular not linear.

I had the opportunity to have the system demonstrated to me, and this is not true. All movement in it is not circular. As well, it was indicated to me that the system has morphed over the years and that initially it resembled the crane-style kung fu, but then adopted quite a bit from capoeira.

Quote:
Kuiganana deal with animal fighting such as "simba" the lion and lions do not come from Asia they come from Africa.

A badger comes from the United States, but if i were to name something such as, "badger style," it does not make the art American. Regardless, the lion is a feline, as is the tiger, panther, and leopard (variations of the feline animal style found in India and China).

Quote:
Kupigana studies animals that are in their surrounding.

Kupigana was devised by an American and created within the borders of the United States. Therefore, the surrounding animals were that of squirrels, chipmunks, and pigeons.

Quote:
In fact the Oriental people are studying an Africa science.

This is simply not correct.

Quote:
Martial arts are for the masses of people not for the elite warrior. The elite warrior will study Kupigana Ngumi which one are you?

Well, this is a leading statement. First off, martial arts differ substantially, and also differ based on your perceptions of what the definition of 'martial arts' is. As to 'elite warrior,' if the practitioners of this style are not out there fighting hand-to-hand battles (real ones) on a regular basis, they are not warriors, nor are they all that elite. I believe it is inappropriate to argue that practitioners of this art are somehow warriors, while those studying all other martial arts are somehow not warriors.

Quote:
The Kupigana warrior are "spiritual warriors or warrior priest" not sport fighter.

Well, most martial arts are not sport-oriented. As well, aikido is very much a spiritual art. As to 'spiritual warriors,' or 'warrior priests,' what is it that they preach? Btw, only William Nichols (the founder of this art) obtained this title, of which i'll cover later in this post.

Quote:
In fact my teacher has probably been studying fighting systems for over 30+ yrs.

I'm assuming your teacher is the creator of this system. If not, then what follows is not relevant to these discussions.

I do not question the experience and skill level of the originator of this art. Nor was i stating that the art he teaches is ineffective. Indeed, i really didn't call it fraudulent, although i suppose my posting of someone else's words about it being fraudulent could be considered an endorsement of such. Thus, i'll take ownership of this statement.

Quote:
A quote from my teacher reads "From 1965 to 1968,while attending J.P Stevens High School, I was a county , district and regional champion in wrestling. My team was undefeated and was “State champion” all three years. As a junior and senior, He was “All County” and “All State” Champion in football and track. Team sport kept him in excellent condition for martial arts. From 1967 to 1971, He trained Bondo under the great teacher, Mfundishi Massi.

Hmm, okay. Wrestling has its origins in Greece, bondo is from Burma with its roots in hung gar and a few other Chinese arts.

Quote:
He also studied Judo while attending Norfolk State.

Okay, he also studied judo (Japanese).

Quote:
After graduating in 1971, He started training in Chinese Sholin Kung Fu under Grand Master William Chung. He excelled to the level of Eighth Degree Black Belt (red sash), in the Chinese Shaolin Hung Fu Federation.

Hmm, William Cheung instructs in wing chun. No other system.

Quote:
In 1972, while attending Rutgers University, He pursued His Master Degree in Philosophy of Education, specializing in African studies. In that same year, He began teaching Kung Fu on the Livingston Campus of Rutgers University. In 1978 He founded Black Gold Afrikan Kultural Arts Center in New Brunswick, New Jersey, and started teaching Kupigana Ngumi (African Martial Arts) and African Philosophy.

Okay, so he taught kung fu for six years, then created kupigana ngumi and started teaching the modified kung fu.

It should be noted that during these six years in which he was teaching kung fu, he performed many exhibitions and participated in fighting matches in a world tour with the Oriental World of Self Defense, applying what he knew at the time... which was not African arts.

Quote:
In 1985, He was promoted to Malenga (Physical and Spiritual Leader) in Kupigana Ngumi Afrikan Martial Arts Philosophy.

He created the art, thus he controls the titles and rankings. I.e., he promoted himself.

Quote:
Between 1971 and 1986, He traveled several times to the Afrikan continent with Dr Ben Jochannan, visting Egypt, Sudan and Ethiopia. He has independently traveled extensively throughout east and west Afrika visiting Tanzania, Kenya, Zaire(Congo), Ghana,Nigeria,Togo, Benin,IvoryCoast,Senegal, Gambia and many others(a total of 23 countries to date). During his travels, He continued to study, history, ourstory, religion, spirituality, philosophy and martial arts.

It has already been indicated, in other reports, that the majority of his travels between 1971 and 1978 were Stateside and Europe. Regardless, visiting a country and mingling with the natives does not give credence to his creating his own version of a martial art, and then calling it African in origin.

Quote:
While keeping abreast with his martial arts, He attained over 150 trophies and became "Grand Champion" over 15 times in fighting,5 times in weapons and 21 times in form or Kata, in the Americas, Caribbean Islands and abroad.

In order to participate and win in the majority of these types of competitions, you essentially must apply Asian styles (katas are Japanese).

Quote:
In 1987, He performed before the Royal Court in Ethiopia, as well as studied with a Coptic Priest and was awarded a special sword from the family of Haile Selassie as a “Warrior Priest”.

Interesting, and impossible, since the last emperor of Ethiopia was put to death in 1975. Also, his obtainment of the 'warrior priest' title was received at an Akoben community exhibition, in the United States... and from an American organization closely associated with Mr. Nichols. I.e., again, self-promotion through cross-organizational ties.

Quote:
The person that replies with English names knows their America name. I would like for that person to tell me what do their Afrikan names mean?

I'm curious as to what this has to do with the topic. I'm also curious as to what dialect/language you are referring to... since the literally thousands of tribes of the African nations each held to different languages or dialects.

Quote:
Or can that person tell me how many names were given to "Nsut Bitty"? Again Kupigan Nugumi is a vast science.

The study of African dialects is clearly not what is taught in kupigana ngumi (btw, was it in error that you've written the spelling of this art?). Indeed, i would not doubt that a few choice words are pulled out of one or two African-originated languages, so as to add flavor, and even that he presents African cultural education... but we're not talking about the trappings, we're talking about the martial art.

Quote:
In 1989, He began teaching Kupigana Ngumi in New York City. On his 40th Earth day He became a Makondae Chief in Tanzania, His homeland,

Umm, Mr. Nichols was born in the United States, not in Tanzania. This is readily apparent by some bios written on him, as well as the fact he has none of the Makonde-type physical markings of tribesmen. Also, Makonde villages are run by 'hereditary' chiefs, based on matriarchal descent, so it is exceedingly unlikely that he would obtain such a status unless his parents were from Tanzania... which i understand they were from the U.S. Also, there is no indication of this in any biographical notes of Mr. Nichols, thus i'm placed in the unhappy position of claiming this as a falsity.

Quote:
and also that same year a Nana Chief among the Ashante in Ghana

Again, no indiction of this in any biographical notes. However, it must be noted that a Nana chief is merely a distinguishing status indicating someone who is level-headed and works to help a community in some manner. It doesn't necessarily hold to some 'grand' concept, and a donation to a village of food, clothing, livestock or even money could very well provide such a title. In this particular case, i would say it's possible, but again... does not somehow 'substantiate' the art he created a decade or so prior.

Last, this and the previous claim are virtually impossible to verify. We would just have to take someone's word on it, now wouldn't we? I mean, these aren't titles that would entail receiving some sort of certification or government accreditation... so what's the point, except to add more trappings?

Quote:
in 1993, the Kupigana Ngumi Pan Afrakan Federation promoted him to the rank of Mfundishi, Grand Master in the Afrakan Martial Arts.

Well, as i indicated earlier, Mr. Nichols created the style, and thus any federation based on the style. Any title he receives, is merely self-promotion. I'm sorry, but these things actually damage your arguments.

Thank you for participating in the discussion.

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White Warlock
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Kronos: A Chronological History of the Martial Arts and Combative Sports, i present this excerpt:

    "About 1968: African American martial art practitioners begin developing Black Nationalist ("Afrikan") martial arts. Most of these practitioners, such as Moses Powell and James Cheatham, taught orthodox Asian or eclectic martial arts, but some, such as Dennis Newsome, instead started studying African heritage arts such as capoeira. In addition, a few practitioners such as Nganga Tolo-Naa (Ray Cooper) and Shaha Maasi (William Nichols) developed their own arts (in this case, Kupigana Ngumi, which includes techniques from karate, t’ai chi ch’uan, and Maung Gyi’s American Bando). African American street versions also developed. Known today by the generic term "Jailhouse Rock," influences on these street versions included Black Islam, rap music, popular dance and kung-fu movies."
The alleged credentials of your instructor, being that he is not one of the co-founders, are not relevant to the discussion as to whether kupigana ngume's origins are that of Africa. What is relevant is the claims/comments presented by the co-founders, as well as their martial arts background.

As well as i know, the founders of this art do not 'claim' the art to originate from Africa. Prior to the presentation of kupigana ngumi, neither had obtained formal training in any form of African martial art. A claim that 'all arts' originated from Africa could very well satisfy an assertion one could borrow from any style and thus call it Afrikan. However, i do not find this assertion to be grounded in sincerity.

Violence is a fundamental aspect of mankind. We fight, we battle, for survival and for want. In this process, due to our ability to think, perceive, and our need to obtain the advantage, we expound upon our studies. We do something, find out it is effective, and hand down this information to those within our immediate circle of friends/family. These friends/family, in turn, learn more and continue with this gradual, evolutionary, development of the arts.

It has little to do with regions, and almost everything to do with the nature of man. There are commonalities in the arts because there are commonalities in human anatomy and body mechanics. Physics, as well, is the same, and therefore if you start with the same base, your means to ends will undoubtedly have similarities. Essentially what i mean is, if your intent is to break the nose, and you've had ample opportunity to break noses, you'll learn similar ways to break a nose. These are the reasons for the similarities.

A postulation that all martial art styles came from a single source is simply invalid. The arts were developed in different continents, different regions, and different cultures. The means to an end differs dependent upon cultural and regional influences, and it is the study of these various approaches that give insight into cultures, influences, and objectives.

Thank you for your time.
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