Add KarateForums.com
Username:    Password:
Remember Me?    
   I Lost My Password!
Post new topic   Reply to topic    KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Karate
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 See a User Guidelines violation? Press on the post.
Author Message

LeighSimmsMA
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 10 Apr 2015
Posts: 37
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:06 am    Post subject: My thoughts on Ippon Kumite Reply with quote

Hi all,

I have written a small post on Ippon Kumite and the issues I see with the practice. I hope it is of useful interest and/or debate within the community here.

Ippon Kumite (one step sparring) is a form of practice that is prevalent in Karate systems and related arts such as Taekwondo. Whilst the practice differs between clubs, it does share a number of similarities. Usually there is an over-ritualised starting posture taken by both participants, one of which (for the purposes of this article will be called “the Attacker”) will proceed to attack, often from a number of feet away, with a karate-like attack (i.e. a stepping punch to the head) and the other participant (“the Defender”) will step back and perform a block, counter attack and retreat. Most who are reading this will be familiar with what I am talking about, but in case you haven’t I have embedded a number of examples below: -

Shotokan Ippon Kumite - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG_u7Pl3d_s

Wado Ryu Ippon Kumite - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA_P62GKDgs

Shito Ryu Ippon Kumite - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saukFwX3OsA

Taekwondo One Step Sparring - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfJ-7i30eIQ

Just for sake of completeness, there is also Ippon Kumite’s sister practices: -

Sanbon Kumite - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNuQnF11hFE
Gohon Kumite - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3M6tdpoEUw

Before continuing, I please note that the above videos are examples I found online to show a range of clubs performing this practice. I fully understand that not all Shotokan, Wado Ryu, Shito Ryu and Taekwondo clubs perform Ippon Kumite like the videos above. I also understand that whilst some clubs perform set drills others do not.

I always want to confirm that my intention is in no way to single out the participants in the videos embedded above. The videos above are purely for reference to show the kind of practices I am writing about in this article. Instead, my intention is to critique Ippon Kumite as a training practice in today’s Karate dojos.

For the purposes of this article, there is no need for an in-depth history of the Ippon Kumite practice, although I believe that it was around the time that Karate changed from a solution to non-consensual violence and to a method of physical fitness and mental discipline in the early 1900s. To me, there is little doubt that those involved with taking to mainland Japan (including Gichin Funakoshi’s son studied Kendo and Iaido under Nakayama Hakudo) as a “Do’ system, not only took the Judo uniform and belt system but they also took some of the training practices prevalent in Kendo: -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fx5Ts9i-MM

This may have occurred to give Karate more of a Japanese “feel” along with changing the names of certain Kata and changing the meaning of Karate from China-Hand to Empty-Hand. Regardless of the history of Ippon Kumite, I will now move on to critique the training method.

Ippon Kumite is purported to be a useful training method when developing martial skills & attributes. Here is a quick list of the commonly attributed attributes: -

• timing/reaction time
• distance management
• moving to angles
• developing speed, power & flow
• dealing with fear

The problem with the above argument is that it is too general. Does Ippon Kumite develop skills for Non-Consensual Violence or for sparring? Or both?

The problem for Ippon Kumite to develop skills from Non-Consensual Violence (NCV) is that the training method is set up as “Karateka vs. Karateka”. I have never seen an assault start with the criminal stepping back with a gedan barai, calling out the method of which he is about to attack in a foreign language! and then proceeding to step forward with a Karate stance and a Karate punch!!

Additionally, the distance and timing of NCV is far different from that seen in Ippon Kumite. NCV usually begins at a lot closer range, doesn’t stop after one attack and the attacks used by criminals are not karate-style punches or kicks.

Ippon Kumite is sometimes justified as attribute training for sparring. This may be for all-in type of sparring where anything goes or for more competition orientated sparring. Regardless of which, Ippon Kumite, suffers the same problems that plague it in respect of NCV.

When it comes to all-in fighting, MMA has become the proving ground for effective training methodologies. Whilst, I have certain issues with the “reality” of MMA, generally speaking, the evolution of MMA has brought about an honesty and humility in martial art training methods. It is a prima facie fact that Ippon Kumite is not practiced in MMA gyms around the world. The reason for this is that Ippon Kumite training does not replicate the kind of fighting seen 1vs1 all-in style fighting.

When it comes to Karate sparring, again Ippon Kumite is rendered ineffective. I have studied Ippon Kumite for many years and was often amazed at how it did not relate to the sparring that would happen in the same class. It is true that Karateka vs. Karateka sparring involves both sides using karate techniques, but it differs from Ippon Kumite in a number of ways.

Firstly, the starting position for most Ippon Kumite drills is the gedan barai for the attacker and the yoi/shizentai position for the defender. Besides eccentric exceptions, I have failed to meet anyone who spars from these positions. Further more I have failed to come across anyone who only attacks in straight line with only one technique at a time. It simply doesn’t happen and to spend time training against these kinds of attacks from these long distances in unnatural positions is illogical.

I do agree that the above list of attributes needs to be developed during Karate training. But Ippon Kumite does not develop these skills in respect to NCV or CC. It deals with them in respect of Ippon Kumite training only. By practicing Ippon Kumite you will get good at managing the Ippon Kumite distance, moving to angles against Ippon Kumite attacks and dealing with the fear or being attacked by these kind of attacks.

When it comes to NCV, we need to look at ways of replicating the kinds of attacks criminals will use (i.e. sucker punches, threatening hand gestures, clothing grabs) as well as the physical scenarios that will occur during the confrontation (i.e. the criminal tries to cover his head after we have struck him, the criminal grips our wrist after we have attempted an eye gouge). Once we understand the kinds of scenarios we are dealing with, we can isolate them and drill the solutions to these.

In response to Ippon Kumite developing skills for sparring, we again need to be looking at the kind of scenarios that occur in sparring contests and isolate those. I do seem to agree somewhat with the Jiyu Ippon Kumite training practices. These are where both participants start from a fighting position and defend against an attack in an isolated manner. We need to ensure that the drills include the footwork, defences and attacks used in sparring. Like any drills, these should be done slowly at first and built up once the students gain confidence.

I have also heard that Ippon Kumite can be a good place for kids/beginners to begin getting used to being “attacked” and that it can be difficult to do this without exaggerating the distance. I totally agree that exaggerating the distance and sometimes the techniques being taught is a useful way of learning something. However, it seems that many clubs don’t reduce the distance after the students have progressed past the beginner level. Secondly, even if they did then the other issues mentioned above still subsist (i.e. the incorrect attacks and incorrect defences). Furthermore, please see below video of two of my youngest students performing my club’s alternative to Ippon Kumite. This myth that kids need to learn Ippon Kumite and that they are unable to develop skills to deal with NCV is simply untrue and the evidence is within the video where my students perform a series of techniques that can be used when dealing with NCV.

https://www.facebook.com/leighsimmskarate/videos/vb.1405470313079043/1575212752771464/?type=2&theater

I want to bring up a point that I hear sometimes in response to my critique of the effectiveness of Ippon Kumite. This is that “Master X practiced Ippon Kumite, therefore, it must work”. It may be true that Master X practices Ippon Kumite, but that does not necessarily mean that his success as a “fighter” is due to the Ippon Kumite training. If Ippon Kumite assists with developing skills for Consensual Combat then we would see MMA, Boxing, Thai Boxing, etc...training in this practice. The reality is that they do not. Instead, they practice defending against attacks that are likely to be used in the cage/ring.

Another argument that I come across is that "it is right because we've always done it this way.” Essentially this is a form of the logical fallacy known as the argument from tradition and claiming something should be done for the sake of tradition is not an argument for the effectiveness of the drill.

However, I fully understand that clubs will practice Ippon Kumite for historical purposes (i.e. to keep the practice alive). I also understand that a lot of clubs/students find them fun to do and will continue to practice them for those reasons. However, I hope that the future of Karate will progress to a point where Ippon Kumite (in its current form) is no longer practiced as training method purporting to develop fighting skills for both consensual combat and non-consensual violence.

Leigh
_________________
www.leighsimms.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 424
Location: Dallas
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent article. I think that this explores exactly one of the deepest problems with a LOT of Martial Arts training. There are actually instructors who will make exaggerated and unrealistic one-steps a part of the TESTING requirements. The equivalent would be if in Judo, we gauged a fighter based on his Uchikomis. That being said, I feel I must play the devils advocate here, or, to put it in more formal terms, to examine the counterfactual. What if there is a use for them and a way to develop them in to something useful? I would make the argument that one-step sparring is an early form of operant conditioning, that is training to cut out thought from response. And as to your assertion that Boxing and MMA schools don't use it, well, I would both agree and disagree. I agree it looks very different because the attacks they are training against look different, but simple stimulus/response drills are the KEY to high level strikers preparing a game plan for a fight.

One steps, or Ippon Kumite, are about developing the reflexive response to a particular stimulus. Now, if you don't think that the stimuli that are being trained against in your school are very realistic and useful, then use different ones, but remember that speed, power, distance management, and other important considerations must be added in layers as the student progresses.
_________________
Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

LeighSimmsMA
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 10 Apr 2015
Posts: 37
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
Excellent article. I think that this explores exactly one of the deepest problems with a LOT of Martial Arts training. There are actually instructors who will make exaggerated and unrealistic one-steps a part of the TESTING requirements. The equivalent would be if in Judo, we gauged a fighter based on his Uchikomis. That being said, I feel I must play the devils advocate here, or, to put it in more formal terms, to examine the counterfactual. What if there is a use for them and a way to develop them in to something useful? I would make the argument that one-step sparring is an early form of operant conditioning, that is training to cut out thought from response. And as to your assertion that Boxing and MMA schools don't use it, well, I would both agree and disagree. I agree it looks very different because the attacks they are training against look different, but simple stimulus/response drills are the KEY to high level strikers preparing a game plan for a fight.

One steps, or Ippon Kumite, are about developing the reflexive response to a particular stimulus. Now, if you don't think that the stimuli that are being trained against in your school are very realistic and useful, then use different ones, but remember that speed, power, distance management, and other important considerations must be added in layers as the student progresses.


Hi! thanks for the response and you raise some interesting questions and think you may have misunderstood me as I think we are suggesting the same things.

Firstly, to the first bolded question above. If there is a way to use them, then I would challenge those to let me know what they are as I have not come across a reason to keep Ippon Kumite in my training. Ippon Kumite may well develop "operant conditioning" as you put it, but I retort (and I think you agree) that the "operant conditiong" is developed for Ippon Kumite and not for non-consensual violence of sparring. My suggestive replacement training methods for Ippon Kumite would develop that skill/ability and would do it in a more efficient and direct way and these are the kinds of "Ippon Kumite" drills you see in other Combat Sports.

To the second point bolded, I hope my article reads in favour of that! In my dojo, we train a form of "one-step" that uses karate techniques to defend against realistic attacks and to deal with scenarios that are commonly found in non-consensual violence. Again the of isolation the techniques, is just the initial stage of a greater training matrix that ultimately leads to applying the principles/techniques in live practice.
_________________
www.leighsimms.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 424
Location: Dallas
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See, I think we do share some very well aligned points, but I believe I would need to see some of the drills that your school is doing, and I cannot access facebook at this time, and more importantly to understand how you build them in to a complex whole that still effectively uses Karate techniques. I believe that it depends on where you are at in your understanding of the art. I mean no disrespect, but this is a complex subject and it is VERY easy to misunderstand and misinterpret things.
Now, the plural of anecdote is not evidence, BUT I will share one relevant to this situation.
I started learning Karate, first Goju, then Shotokan, when I was about 7. I did one steps a lot and drilled technique, then one day, when I was about 9, I lived in a rough neighborhood and my sister and I were attacked by some boys about my ager or slightly older on the way home from school. My training took over, I used Mae Geri to drop one attacker, had my sister run, and the second one tackled me. Thankfully, neither of us could ground fight so I was relatively safe and bystanders broke it up soon after, BUT, I was able to survive an encounter with multiple larger, stronger attackers. I may be wrong, but I credit one steps for helping me survive that encounter, so I am not so quick to dismiss them.
_________________
Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

strangepair03
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 312
Location: New Jersey
Styles: Okinawan Shorinji Ryu Karate-Do

PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great article LeighSimmsMA, you put a lot of points to ponder out there.
Thank you!
_________________
A punch should stay like a treasure in the sleeve. It should not be used indiscrimately.
Kyan Chotoku Sensei
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

LeighSimmsMA
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 10 Apr 2015
Posts: 37
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
See, I think we do share some very well aligned points, but I believe I would need to see some of the drills that your school is doing, and I cannot access facebook at this time, and more importantly to understand how you build them in to a complex whole that still effectively uses Karate techniques. I believe that it depends on where you are at in your understanding of the art. I mean no disrespect, but this is a complex subject and it is VERY easy to misunderstand and misinterpret things.
Now, the plural of anecdote is not evidence, BUT I will share one relevant to this situation.
I started learning Karate, first Goju, then Shotokan, when I was about 7. I did one steps a lot and drilled technique, then one day, when I was about 9, I lived in a rough neighborhood and my sister and I were attacked by some boys about my ager or slightly older on the way home from school. My training took over, I used Mae Geri to drop one attacker, had my sister run, and the second one tackled me. Thankfully, neither of us could ground fight so I was relatively safe and bystanders broke it up soon after, BUT, I was able to survive an encounter with multiple larger, stronger attackers. I may be wrong, but I credit one steps for helping me survive that encounter, so I am not so quick to dismiss them.


Hi Tempest,

If it is ok with you I will share a link with you, privately, of one of the few drills I have online at the moment as I don't want to sidetrack the thread.

I think it is important to note that benefits that may come from Ippon Kumite style practices can come from other forms of training which are more direct and efficient in approach. Besides getting good at "Ippon Kumite", I can't seem to find a benefit that it produces which can't be produced by more realistic training methods.

In relation to your antedote, I can't disagree with your personal experience (at the same time however I know of plenty of stories where other karateka's training hasn't worked for them), but would like to ask this question if you had chance to go back in time and train the following, which would you choose?

1) Keep the karate training you had the same (i.e. stay with drilling Ippon Kumite); or

2) Drill defences against tackles, multiple opponents and getting back to your feet once downed.

Leigh
_________________
www.leighsimms.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16386
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Outstanding article, LeighSimmsMA, thank you for it; well constructed: solid points and explanations across the board!! An article for both the beginner as well as the advanced...and then some!!



_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Wastelander
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2730
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My style has drills that are essentially like ippon/sanbon/gohon-kumite, but they vary greatly in length, so we can't really number them that way, so we call them "yakusoku kumite." Originally, Nakazato Shugoro created 21 of them, but pared it down to 7, which are the ones I first learned. His son has since added 21 of his own. The original 7 are generally longer than the new ones, but the formula is the same--do the very basic ippon/sanbon/gohon-kumite stuff for a while, then end with a practical fighting/self defense technique, albeit still done against a karate attack.

I like the endings--particularly in the new set, as they all come from kata--and we actually regularly break out the endings as their own drills in our dojo, working them against realistic attacks with resistance. Most people do not do this, however. Personally, I hate the rest of the techniques in the drills because of the same reasons you point out in your article. I think time is better spent on realistic drills, just slowed down and with expanded distance for beginners.

Now, I will admit that I happen to support the idea that "non-directly-applicable" drills can develop useful skills. With that in mind, I do think that these types of drills, despite not being directly applicable, do still teach concepts of distancing/timing/reactions/etc. It isn't a matter of them teaching those concepts for a particular context--just that it teaches them, at all. Even so, I am in complete agreement with you that they are an inefficient method for conveying these concepts, if we are training for practicality. I have to practice and teach ours as long as I am in the organization, because they are required. It doesn't mean I have to like it
_________________
Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LeighSimmsMA,

Excellent points. I tend to agree with you on most of your arguments.
Thank you for sharing this with us.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

DWx
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great article Leigh.

Our TKD school uses one-step sparring (Ilbo Matsogi in Korean) a little differently to most TKD schools and for us they are to bridge the gap between fundamental movement and sparring or self defence.

The major difference is that we don't teach set sequences and at advanced colour belt levels don't specify the attack, the defender has to observe, decide, then act. That is where I find the benefit personally. For us one step sparring is supposed to provide a framework onto which you can practice selection of blocks and attacks and learn the correct angles and distances to use them whilst also learning to think and react fast.

I agree with the argument that no-one starts in a gedan barai before attacking you but as a halfway house between kata and free-sparring it makes sense to have set position to start in and reset the drill even if it is a bit formal. (We actually start from a shizentai or feet parallel position). Later on you can use a more free position in free sparring

When teaching this in our school, the responses we want to see students create are:

- block > counter-attack > immobilise
- evade > counter-attack > immobilise
- simultaneous counter-attack (i.e. shutting the opponent down)

The key being that students should chose blocks and counters that are comfortable for them and work with their body type and the situation they are in. Though we specify the attack to lower grades, at higher colour belt levels we're wanting students to be able to quickly identify and respond to a variety of unspecified situations:

- straight attack (e.g. front punch)
- inside to outside (e.g. backfist)
- outside to inside (e.g. hook punch or haymaker)
- downward (e.g. bottle to the head)
- upward (e.g. uppercut)

plus similar breakdowns for kicks.

It's up to the defenders to quickly workout how the attack is travelling towards them and then select a response to match.
_________________
"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Karate All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


< Advertising - Contact - Disclosure Policy - DMCA - Staff - User Guidelines >