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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 687
Location: Central Maine
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 Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:33 pm Post subject: Nukite question |
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Just a question on the spear hand strike.
Why is the hand held vertically (at least in Heian Nidan) when human ribs are horizontal? My way of thinking is that a spear would need to be horizontal to make it past the ribs.
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"Those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know." ~ Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching
"Walk a single path, becoming neither cocky with victory nor broken with defeat, without forgetting caution when all is quiet or becoming frightened when danger threatens." ~ Jigaro Kano |
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Dani_001
Orange Belt
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
Posts: 137
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Styles: Okinawa Goju-Ryu Karatedo Kyokai
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:07 am Post subject: |
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Hey LLL,
The reasons for techniques seemingly not appearing as they are, especially and most importantly in kata, is to hide it.
When bunkai of kata is applied, you will see it unravel.
I hope this answers your question.
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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 687
Location: Central Maine
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:18 am Post subject: |
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It is not the answer I was hoping for, but it does help.
I was just focused more on the mechanics. I could see it vertically if we were fighting deer.
_________________
"Those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know." ~ Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching
"Walk a single path, becoming neither cocky with victory nor broken with defeat, without forgetting caution when all is quiet or becoming frightened when danger threatens." ~ Jigaro Kano |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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This is partly due to what Dani_001 eluded to but it goes a little further.
As far as the ribs goes, your thought process would be right except the target is not the ribs. It is true that the fingers can be conditioned to an extent that you can penetrate deep into muscle tissue without a problem but breaking ribs or even penetrating between ribs is not what the Nukite is used for.
Like any technique utilizing the fingers, the Nukite is primarily utilized in targeting cavity and vital points. In terms of the chest/rib cage area there are many that can be targeted using the Nukite and which does not require a full force strike to be effective. There is a vital just below the nipple that comes to mind but this is typically struck with a knuckle versus a finger but because it does not take much force to be effective it can be utilized for this.
The overlooked meaning behind some techniques is that they are not what they seem but something completely different. It could be a sweep, throw, take down, deflection, etc.
In terms of Pinan Shodan (Heian Nidan) this does not only represent a strike. As with most of the Kata each posture (move) represents one or a multitude of applications. One of our applications for this is a take down. trap the opponents hand and step in behind the opponents lead foot and execute a balance break/take down with the "Nukite" arm. Others have to do with targeting the vital points.
The main thing to remember is people take things to literally when it comes to Kata. Just because the strike is at chest level does not mean that it can not or should not be executed to say the throat.
Remember that open hand techniques, especially finger techniques, are typically used to target soft targets which mean vital and cavities (nerve, artery/vein and tendon/ligament) not hard (bone). Striking the ribs or targeting the space between the ribs with the very real chance of striking one of the ribs with full force makes no sense. If you damage one of your weapons in a real fight your chances of success are minimized exponentially. Why would you practice this?
Ask your Sensei to teach you the Kata's Bunkai/Applications and it will become clear. If it makes no sense, it usually is something other than what you think it is. He will or should be able to shed light on the application and it will all make sense. |
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2734
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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Well, your fingers will never penetrate a human ribcage, so the orientation of the ribs doesn't really matter. The simplest application is that you are actually attacking the neck, not the body. There are many other ways to look at it, though
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Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Wastelander wrote: |
| Well, your fingers will never penetrate a human ribcage, so the orientation of the ribs doesn't really matter. The simplest application is that you are actually attacking the neck, not the body. There are many other ways to look at it, though |
I am curious if you/your art utilizes this technique to attack vitals/cavities? If so do you only utilize Nukite to attack the neck or do you attck other soft targets? |
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wildbourgman
Orange Belt
Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 172
Location: Louisiana
Styles: Shotokan/Shorin Ryu
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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Try taking a nukite to the lower outer pectoral muscle. It hurts like the Dickens. That's one way we practice it.
I think the neck, the pec and possibly driving it deep into the armpit could be good targets for a nukite.
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2734
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
| Wastelander wrote: |
| Well, your fingers will never penetrate a human ribcage, so the orientation of the ribs doesn't really matter. The simplest application is that you are actually attacking the neck, not the body. There are many other ways to look at it, though |
I am curious if you/your art utilizes this technique to attack vitals/cavities? If so do you only utilize Nukite to attack the neck or do you attck other soft targets? |
Yes, we do, and yes, we attack other soft targets as well. We also use the same throwing application you described in your post. Depending on the opponent, we sometimes end up with the nukite actually being a sliding forearm strike to the back of the neck. There are just so many ways a movement can be applied. For the sake of this conversation, though, I was sticking with the most straight-forward thing--striking to vulnerable points in the neck (or the eyes) with the fingertips or thumb. For someone with little experience with the bunkai process, it's a solid place to start.
_________________
Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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Dani_001
Orange Belt
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
Posts: 137
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Styles: Okinawa Goju-Ryu Karatedo Kyokai
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the information. Always willing to learn.
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Uphold the Budo spirit and nothing will overcome you! |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16427
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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Nukite can be delivered both vertical or horizontal [palm down/palm up].
As MatsuShinaii momentarily mentioned the following...
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| The overlooked meaning behind some techniques is that they are not what they seem but something completely different. It could be a sweep, throw, take down, deflection, etc. |
In Shindokan, we, more than otherwise, utilize the Nukite as more of a check than as a strike. Our Soke didn't see the Nukite as a striking implement but more of an otherwise means of utilization. We check receive within our brand of Tuite, and we never use the nukite as a strike to our opponent because we believe it's a weak tool.
We'd not poke an eye, we'd rather smash the eye...we'd not poke soft tissue, we'd rather smash the soft tissue. It's our methodology!!
However, as Wastelander momentarily mentioned the following...
| Quote: |
| There are just so many ways a movement can be applied. For the sake of this conversation, though, I was sticking with the most straight-forward thing--striking to vulnerable points in the neck (or the eyes) with the fingertips or thumb. |
We do, utilize the thumb to soft tissue because it's our bread and butter within our brand of Kyusho Jitsu, and this, to us, is an acceptable poke/thrust, that can't usually be denied by our attacker.
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on the post.
