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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1288

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:58 pm    Post subject: Olympic karate influence Reply with quote

Karate is now officially an Olympic event. The games are in a few years, so it may be too early to make any speculations as to how this will affect karate. The only sure thing that can be expected is an increase in popularity. Regardless of how it is considered, the influence will be strong.

How much do you expect this to affect your dojo and in what way? Will the fact that karate is now an official Olympic event change anything in the way you reach or administer your dojo? What about your training?
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LLLEARNER
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 390
Location: Central Maine

PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are not one of the more established schools. We don't have our own place at this time. I do not expect we will see much increase.

I do not see how it would affect the administration of the school.

I am still trying to convince my Sensei to try out for Team USA. Or Team Dominica. I just want to see him attempt.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 12576
Location: Owasso, OK
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's just a thing, karate in the Olympics, no big deal one way or another.

Quote:
How much do you expect this to affect your dojo and in what way?

This being said, I do not foresee the SKKA or the Hombu becoming affected by this because Shindokan isn't a sport based karate.

Quote:
Will the fact that karate is now an official Olympic event change anything in the way you reach or administer your dojo?

Nope, not in one iota!! Business as usual, and in that, there's no reason for us to adopt anything relating to the IOC because it'll be the furthest thing from our minds.

Quote:
What about your training?

I'll be 60 years old this October, and in that, my "tournament" days are far behind me, alas, I'll not be training in those regards!! I'll save that for those much younger than I.




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MatsuShinshii
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 460
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Matsumura Shorin Ryu Rokudan 1979 to Present, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our organization will not be effected since we do not subscribe to sport karate or tournaments based on point sparring/ flashy Kata.
I personally think it's another mile deeper down the "sport not effective combat based art" rabbit hole for Karate and despise the very concept as I feel it has no merit with in the art. Having said this, to each their own, and I'm sure it will be very popular among the sport based styles and schools.
IMHO it's just another step backwards and another reason students will look elsewhere for real combat based self defense.
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1288

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the advent of Olympic karate, it would seem logical to expect an increasing trend towards sport and competition. This will certainly boost public interest, however the popularity will be for sport.

Those who teach and train in karate as it was originally intended are few and far between. Olympic karate could mean that fewer and fewer people will be interested in training "original" karate.
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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2042
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a feeling my dojo will see an increase for a time, although with a higher drop off rate for those only joining to try and get on the Australian Squad to compete at the Olympics if any get into one of the events.

I doubt we will change how we run our classes, maybe with the exception of adding extra classes where we can to cater for those extra numbers.

But the one thing we will never do is water down our classes, for those wanting to do Sport Karate. They have to go through the ranks and earn them like everyone else.
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The Pred
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 301

Styles: Goju Ryu

PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
Our organization will not be effected since we do not subscribe to sport karate or tournaments based on point sparring/ flashy Kata.
I personally think it's another mile deeper down the "sport not effective combat based art" rabbit hole for Karate and despise the very concept as I feel it has no merit with in the art. Having said this, to each their own, and I'm sure it will be very popular among the sport based styles and schools.
IMHO it's just another step backwards and another reason students will look elsewhere for real combat based self defense.


Have you had any students interested in participating in MMA events to show how karate can be more than a sports based art,
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MatsuShinshii
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 460
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Matsumura Shorin Ryu Rokudan 1979 to Present, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Pred wrote:
MatsuShinshii wrote:
Our organization will not be effected since we do not subscribe to sport karate or tournaments based on point sparring/ flashy Kata.
I personally think it's another mile deeper down the "sport not effective combat based art" rabbit hole for Karate and despise the very concept as I feel it has no merit with in the art. Having said this, to each their own, and I'm sure it will be very popular among the sport based styles and schools.
IMHO it's just another step backwards and another reason students will look elsewhere for real combat based self defense.


Have you had any students interested in participating in MMA events to show how karate can be more than a sports based art,


Yes.

I have had a few younger students that have tried their hand at competing in MMA, or what ever the city level tournaments are called or are under, and have been successful but I don't have any students that have made a permanent switch to MMA if that is what your asking. And I have not lost any students to MMA.

Since we teach traditional "old school" Todi (Karate) which includes a vast majority of the things that students would leave to go and learn else where, I guess the majority don't feel they need to.

I do encourage them to study ground fighting (Jujutsu) outside of the Dojo. We have very basic Ne Waza techniques that teach them to escape and get back to their feet but they do not give them the tools to handle say a MMA or Jujutsu fighter on the ground. There main purpose is to get back to the feet and teach them how to strike from the ground, not to fight on the ground, so yes I have encouraged my students to learn outside for these purposes but again, the vast majority does not.

In terms of competition or sport, that is up to each individual and I do not influence them either way. I can say that my school does not participate in the main stream tournaments mainly for a few reasons; one - I feel that "point sparring" is not conducive to learning to defend yourself in actual combat. It instills a false sense of security. Just because you are faster than your opponent and have a few tricks does not mean you beat your opponent, it only means you scored more points. It also instills bad habits which mainly are the instinct to pull your strikes before impact, jump around like a jack rabbit and to fight long distance. two - I think the advent of made up Kata's or making them flashy, defeats the meaning of the Kata and is one of the main reasons that most modern day schools only teach them for rank but do not pass on the meaning (Bunkai) and do not teach the student how to utilize them to fight. three - I can have all of the trophies in the world and still be beaten by the thug down the street. Its useless in a real fight.

The first art of Karate that I took was really into competing and had a ton of trophies adorning their front window. I like most of the public thought this meant that they could teach me to defend myself and they must be tough. Well I have always been tall and very fast so I won many tournaments and had a ton of trophies adorning the shelves in my parents house. The problem... the first time I got into a real fight I was destroyed and went home confused as to how this could happen. The problem was they were not teaching me to fight, they were teaching me how to score points. Points mean absolutely nothing. They do not determine the actual victor. They only determine who had more points.

Because of this and the fact that I later found a true old school art that actually taught me how to fight and defend myself, I leave the sport to those that it suits. For me this is not Todi (Karate) this is just merely a sport that somewhat resembles actual Karate.

I am sure you are drawing a parallel between the sport aspect of MMA and Olympic Karate but MMA does not directly reflect on the way Karate is perceived by the public. Students flock to MMA because they do not feel that they can get true fighting skills by taking Karate mainly due to what I would call sport Karate and Modern Karate which places more emphasis on tournaments than teaching and passing on true combative skills.

MMA does not in itself pose a threat to old school Karate. In fact if more instructors taught the art as it was intended you would see an influx of MMA fighters training in the art. Sport Karate however plays a major role in degrading the art in terms of effectiveness as a combative art. The way the public perceives it after taking or watching a sport Karate class is that it is not effective.

Need proof? Just walk into a modern day Dojo and surely you will hear the following; "why do I have to learn Kata, it doesn't teach me how to fight".

Need more proof? Walk into that same school and watch what is taught and then see what the students do during Kumite. The two never resemble each other. The students do not take what they have learned and utilize it to fight. That is because the emphasis on points is the over riding factor in how Kumite is taught. The techniques required for scoring points often times do not even come close to what would work on the streets. And thus you have the reason for the perception that Karate is less effective than MMA or Muay Thai or Krav Maga or pick a combat art.

To me this is one of the main reasons that so many students leave and join MMA gyms or move to other arts like Muay Thai. The sad thing is most students, much less their instructors, know that Ti (Ti'gwa) was influenced by Muay Boran which is the predecessor of Muay Thai.

More sad is the fact that most do not understand their Kata in terms of knowing that they contain more than just strikes, kicks, blocks (no such thing) and stances. Why? Because modern day instructors have moved away from these things thinking that the public wants something different. Funny thing is, now, they realize they are loosing students to other arts because they no longer offer the one thing most begin the art looking for. A way to effectively defend themselves.

Is Olympic Karate a good thing? Only if you teach sport Karate. For those of us that teach old school it is just another mile down the rabbit hole of obscurity and becoming just another sport.

The push of the "modern" instructor is to highlight the "Do" or peaceful way to reach outside of those that would join their school looking for combative methods and to learn how to end a confrontation with an attacker by turning it into a sport with rules. There are no rules on the street and there is definitely no referee's. So what benefit is there? We have enough after school sports. What? loosing that money? Ok change it into a sport and we'll capture more students. Are they interested in caring on the art as it was intended? No but thats ok as long as I fill my pockets. No respect for the art or those that passed it down to us! And we wonder why so many don't have the first clue of what their Bunkai is and why so many are making up phony Bunkai to cover their tracks. Just teach the art as it was passed down! These teachers don't understand the Kata because they or their teachers turned it into some flashy gobbly goop to win tournaments. Just teach the art or call what your teaching something else.

This is not the only thing contributing to the degradation of Karate as a combative art. Lets not forget the business man that sells belts for money and incorporates other arts because they do not have the first clue of what is contained within their own art. Why would I take Karate to learn other arts and just to put trophies on my mantel when what I really want is an effective means to protect myself? I wouldn't.

Between sport, modern day "Do's" and the ever rising presence of McDojo's it's a wonder how anyone would take the art if they were serious about learning to defend themselves and have a hope and a prayer of surviving an actual attack.

Yep. I'm pretty opinionated on this subject and don't think about offending by expressing it. May not be popular but in my not so humble opinion about this subject, I can not stand the fact that it's in the Olympics. It has the direct opposite effect in that, instead of highlighting the art for what it is, it is instead highlighted as a sport. To me this is not a plus.

The Pred, hopefully you understand that these are statements and not directed towards you or anyone else here on the forums. Just my 2 cents.
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The Pred
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 301

Styles: Goju Ryu

PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not at all, I like to describe kata as self-defense drills for out on the street.
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