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Johnlogic121
Orange Belt
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 156
Styles: Montgomery Style Karate, Ninjutsu, Isshinryu, Judo, Mang Chaun Kung Fu, Kempo
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 Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:42 am Post subject: Pros and Cons of Choking Attacks |
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They say that the human brain can withstand total oxygen deprivation for three to five minutes. Some Judo chokes, executed from either a standing postion or a ground fighting position, "seal the vein" to stop blood flow to the brain rather than seal the airway. A good choke is hard to bypass as "just nothing" when you are struggling with someone. Because it takes so long to make sure someone you are choking is dead, I don't think the move would be favored by soldiers, unless they choked someone until they were stunned and then beat them to death by other means. Occassionally, you can seriously endanger your training partner when practicing choking, too. My father read an article about a Judo practitioner who was Judo wrestling with his father, another Judo practitioner, and he maintained a choke so long that his father never woke up. What does the forum think about the self-defense and combative value of choking attacks? I see what looks like some choking attempts in the UFC fights, and it seems to have a valid place as a submission hold in tournament fighting. I don't think alot of Karate schools train on choking as a regular move. Kung Fu has a "butterfly choke" which is a two-handed choke that uses the thumbs to attack the windpipe, and it can be lethal. Kung Fu also uses a lot of single hand chokes to the throat that turn into claw attacks against the windpipe. Aside from attacking the windpipe, hoever, does anybody have real fighting experience with choking or being choked?
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First Grandmaster - Montgomery Style Karate; 12 year Practitioner - Bujinkan Style Ninjutsu; Isshinryu, Judo, Mang Chaun Kung Fu, Kempo |
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NightOwl
KF Sempai
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 981
Location: Japan
Styles: This and that, Rookie Judo
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:00 am Post subject: |
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Chokes are taught as part of military training, however they purposefully don't use air chokes against the windpipe, but instead train in blood chokes only. An air choke against the wind pipe can take a very long time to actually work, however blood chokes are quite fast. It only takes around 10 seconds for most to work, and once it does your opponent is totally helpless. One on one they are a great tool.
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Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
~Theodore Roosevelt |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 11994
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo,Hapkido, SCA Combat, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:24 am Post subject: |
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Chokes are great, but they have to be trained properly. I think that the blood chokes are a better route to go, liability wise, because you don't run the risk of crushing the windpipe. Also, once you release the choke, the blood starts going back to the brain, preventing any brain damage.
Choking with the hands could prove more dangerous than with the arms, because the fingers can penetrate more, and cause more damage to the trachea, etc. (in my opinion).
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Success is where preparation meets opportunity.
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Bushido-Ruach
Yellow Belt
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 41
Location: California
Styles: Self-defense MMA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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Certain Chin-Na techniques work well for blood chokes, because they directly stimulate the muscles around the carotid arteries and, depending upon how much force was utilized in striking the nerves, the sealing of the veins can last long enough to kill.
Other techniques seal the breath by causing the muscles around the lungs to squeeze the lungs shut to the point that breathing is impossible. I have witnessed this a few times in practice where someone hit the appropriate target too hard and all you heard was the air being forced out of their mouth in an alarming rate....its scary to see that happen to someone you know.
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Using no Way, AS Way...
Using no Limitation, AS Limitation |
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NewEnglands_KyoSa
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 907
Location: New England
Styles: Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do , Chinese Kempo
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:54 am Post subject: |
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I think that the choke is simply one of those very complex things. Firstly, when considering the practicality of a choke you must think of how you get there. It takes a great deal of skill to get in for a choke because your opponent must be distracted or hurting or busy long enough for one, but usually better if it's both hands to get around the neck.
Also when considering chokes you must remember that they are a double edged sword in that they usually(not all the time) contain a strike within them, right before you wrap around or bear down on the neck, in some cases that strike is meant to to devastating damage whether to the circulatory or respiratory stystem and even the brain.
In my opinion chokes are just one of those tough things, because they do need a certain amount of time to be performed, and because everyone's different you have to be careful. You can't use a choke when you have multiple opponent's, and i personally would only use a choke as a finishing movement.
Just a few thoughts though. 
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 11994
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo,Hapkido, SCA Combat, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:32 am Post subject: |
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I think that you can use a choke against multiple opponents. If you apply it from a standing position from behind, then you can use the person you are choking as a shield from the others until he is asleep.
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Success is where preparation meets opportunity.
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NewEnglands_KyoSa
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 907
Location: New England
Styles: Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do , Chinese Kempo
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:09 am Post subject: |
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The only problem i see with that is, you better be strong as heck to be able to move that person around as a shield. Also, usually while your choking your head is exposed...i wouldnt wanna run that risk.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 11994
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo,Hapkido, SCA Combat, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:18 am Post subject: |
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If you have the choke applied properly, then you have their balance broken for the most part. Also, you are looking at about 5 seconds, if you have the choke sunk on good. Your head is open, but they have to get around their buddie's body to hit you.
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NewEnglands_KyoSa
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 907
Location: New England
Styles: Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do , Chinese Kempo
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:21 am Post subject: |
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5 seconds would be too much for me, that's atleast five knocks to the head by atleast one shady character. It's just very dangerous to have all your resources tied up like that. I personally wouldn't risk it with more than one other person around.
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NightOwl
KF Sempai
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 981
Location: Japan
Styles: This and that, Rookie Judo
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: |
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Stall them with that one joke??? 
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Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
~Theodore Roosevelt |
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on the post.
