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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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 Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
Well, it's official...all 3 of them quit!! Citing that the SKKA doesn't respect their beliefs, so why should they respect ours. Fair enough!!
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No matter what you do, once someone has God attached to anything, you're not going to change their mind. Rightfully or not, it's the way it is.
As an example Sensei8, would it change your opinion of bowing to a picture of your Soke and Dai-Soke at shomen or shinzen?
We start every class with the following:
Shinzen ni rei
Kaicho ni rei
Nidaime ni rei
Our shinzen has Seido Juku's kanji
There's a picture of Kaicho Nakamura
And a picture of his son Nidaime (second in line) Akira Nakamura
I don't view any of it as worship. I view it as showing respect individually for the entire organization and what it stands for, showing respect for Kaicho and what he's done, and for Nidaime and what he's done. Neither of those two individuals are Gods nor God-like in any way, shape or form. And if you asked them, they'd confirm just that. When I've taken class in their immediate presence I've bowed to them (along with the rest of the senior black belts), and I view their pictures as nothing different than that.
I'm not going to change your mind, and I don't want to; your beliefs are yours and you have them due to life experience. Those students have their beliefs, as misguided or ill informed as they may be; they are their beliefs and won't change.
But in all fairness, I can't see how it would have worked out for those students in the long run. If they were informed of this protocol/ritual/practice/tradition (I hate to use words that could be twisted or misinterpreted as religious) from the beginning, they shouldn't have started in the first place. It was only a matter of time before they found something else as a conflict of religious belief and left IMO. I'm surprised they started at all. |
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1902
Styles: Shorin ryu
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:19 am Post subject: |
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It is indeed a wonder why these people were not immediately told to go elsewhere. It is most unfair to everyone to give such people special treatment or make exceptions because of their personal beliefs.
These types invariably end up being more trouble because they will keep making the same excuse. Their beliefs will always be a source of annoyance and possibly aggravation for others in the dojo who will not understand why these people think that this entitles them to special exemptions from following school rules or culture.
It is amusing how such people somehow think that respect means everyone everywhere should make exceptions for them. The only right way to be respectful of anyone in a dojo is for every single man, woman or child to follow exactly the same rules and protocol with no exceptions asked or given for any reason.
What if the people in question refused to train with girls or women because of their "beliefs"? Would it be the same? Some people are just not willing to get along with others and keep on making excuses not to, no matter how many hands are extended to them.
Any sensible sensei would do well to refuse to deal with them at all because they are the farthest away from the ideal candidate martial arts student as they come in with a closed-mind. |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| Spartacus Maximus wrote: |
It is indeed a wonder why these people were not immediately told to go elsewhere. It is most unfair to everyone to give such people special treatment or make exceptions because of their personal beliefs.
These types invariably end up being more trouble because they will keep making the same excuse. Their beliefs will always be a source of annoyance and possibly aggravation for others in the dojo who will not understand why these people think that this entitles them to special exemptions from following school rules or culture.
It is amusing how such people somehow think that respect means everyone everywhere should make exceptions for them. The only right way to be respectful of anyone in a dojo is for every single man, woman or child to follow exactly the same rules and protocol with no exceptions asked or given for any reason.
What if the people in question refused to train with girls or women because of their "beliefs"? Would it be the same? Some people are just not willing to get along with others and keep on making excuses not to, no matter how many hands are extended to them.
Any sensible sensei would do well to refuse to deal with them at all because they are the farthest away from the ideal candidate martial arts student as they come in with a closed-mind. |
I think we should make reasonable accommodations to include as many people as reasonably possible. Key word being reasonable. It's unreasonable to allow someone not to bow to their instructors, classmates, etc. I an exception becomes unreasonable when it becomes a distraction to the group at large and/or detracts from what's being taught.
I heard a story of a female student in my former organization who refused to spar against men. She'd do all drills and pre-arranged sparring with men, just not free-sparring. She was allowed to do this at the dojo she was a part of (not mine), with the understanding that she would have to spar against men (and women) during dan testing. Dan testing was done at our honbu by the head of the organization. Apparently she was a victim of sexual assault. Had she not been given this exception, she'd have never joined. She was a very good karateka and person by everyone who knew her's account. She made it through shodan and nidan testing, but she needed a lot of encouragement and consoling.
Sitting back and criticizing it is easy. I'm sure it was quite difficult for her to do what she did under her circumstances.
If you always say "Nope. No exceptions. Good bye," you're going to miss out on some people who will contribute a lot to what you do.
Just my opinion. |
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vantheman
Blue Belt
Joined: 18 Apr 2012
Posts: 252
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:52 am Post subject: |
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As someone who has studied theology and has an interest in its applications in situations like those described above, I don't see a real conflict between bowing and any Abrahamic religions (save one minor exception, which I will detail below).
Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, to some extent or another, distinguish between veneration or respect and worship. In these respective religions, worship is reserve for God and God alone. To worship something that is not God would be idolatry, which Abrahamic religions see as gravely, egregiously bad. Showing elevated respect for another person or a likeness of a person or idea, however, is acceptable, so long as your are not worshipping it as a deity. To the outsider, this can be a somewhat nuanced concept, but the easiest example in Christianity would be how God is seen versus how the Saints are seen.
Now, given that bowing in martial arts comes from a sign of respect, not a sign of worship, most Abrahamic religions shouldn't have an issue. They're bowing to Sensei out of respect, not because Sensei is God incarnate. Hardcore Fundamentalists may see things differently, but they tend to represent a minority of religious individuals.
The only issue I've come across that goes against the general rule of thumb described above is bowing from Seiza, which more closely religious rituals practiced by significant numbers of Muslims. At that point, it could be seen as imitating a religious practice in an inappropriate context, which could raise some issues.
Then, of course, the issue becomes what do you do when someone's religious beliefs interfere with the ability to effectively practice a particular style, which delves into a massive political debate.
Luckily, there are PLENTY of great styles and instructors out there that do not require bowing, so everyone *should* be content at the end of the day.
_________________
Van |
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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2358
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| JR 137 wrote: |
| Spartacus Maximus wrote: |
It is indeed a wonder why these people were not immediately told to go elsewhere. It is most unfair to everyone to give such people special treatment or make exceptions because of their personal beliefs.
These types invariably end up being more trouble because they will keep making the same excuse. Their beliefs will always be a source of annoyance and possibly aggravation for others in the dojo who will not understand why these people think that this entitles them to special exemptions from following school rules or culture.
It is amusing how such people somehow think that respect means everyone everywhere should make exceptions for them. The only right way to be respectful of anyone in a dojo is for every single man, woman or child to follow exactly the same rules and protocol with no exceptions asked or given for any reason.
What if the people in question refused to train with girls or women because of their "beliefs"? Would it be the same? Some people are just not willing to get along with others and keep on making excuses not to, no matter how many hands are extended to them.
Any sensible sensei would do well to refuse to deal with them at all because they are the farthest away from the ideal candidate martial arts student as they come in with a closed-mind. |
I think we should make reasonable accommodations to include as many people as reasonably possible. Key word being reasonable. It's unreasonable to allow someone not to bow to their instructors, classmates, etc. I an exception becomes unreasonable when it becomes a distraction to the group at large and/or detracts from what's being taught.
I heard a story of a female student in my former organization who refused to spar against men. She'd do all drills and pre-arranged sparring with men, just not free-sparring. She was allowed to do this at the dojo she was a part of (not mine), with the understanding that she would have to spar against men (and women) during dan testing. Dan testing was done at our honbu by the head of the organization. Apparently she was a victim of sexual assault. Had she not been given this exception, she'd have never joined. She was a very good karateka and person by everyone who knew her's account. She made it through shodan and nidan testing, but she needed a lot of encouragement and consoling.
Sitting back and criticizing it is easy. I'm sure it was quite difficult for her to do what she did under her circumstances.
If you always say "Nope. No exceptions. Good bye," you're going to miss out on some people who will contribute a lot to what you do.
Just my opinion. |
I agree, you need to make a reasonable amount of accommodation for those who wish to train; although i do believe there is a limit on what you can reasonably allow for people to do.
For the karateka in your account, i can understand the wounds have run deep and she may have been diagnosed with PTSD. IMHO I think it also depends on when it occurred as well because it would depend on the form of treatment and assistance that they are getting from a Psychologist.
I say that because I know a few people with PTSD and have been abused either physically, psychologically or both and they battle every single day but over time for them as part of their treatment is to confront the root of the problem either directly or indirectly. One of my closest and dearest friends (who I got permission from to tell this story as long as I left out certain identifying features of them and their attacker), was emotionally and continuously bashed by their parents which left them with an inability to handle physically contact from men or contact near or on their neck.
But as part of their treatment it was to build up the tolerance and ability to control and recognise when it is getting to that point of an episode. As such their treatment and training was to undergo being touched on or around the neck and how to manage those emotions. But every time this treatment occurs it had to be with people they knew well and felt safe around.
This friend of mine is now a 2nd Kyu (Brown Belt) and is working hard at treatment, and is everyday training hard in Karate. This person as much as they know doing Kumite with Males is a Trigger along with Older Females; they will not refuse to do it because of that but to learn to control themselves and to heal and not let it happen to them again or as often. |
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ps1
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 3025
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:13 am Post subject: |
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Why does the bow matter? I don't live in Japan. I live where a handshake, hug, or fist bump are a sign of respect.
In my school we teach "Respect means treating others as I would want to be treated." If I want others to respect me...that begins with my actions toward them.
Even if you consider the bow to be a sign of respect, that doesn't mean that not bowing is a sign of disrespect (unless you're living in a country where this is true. But the US and most other countries don't bow on the regular). Think that through. If they treat you well, if they are kind to others and learn what you teach, if they are a good role model...one flaw makes them somehow disrespectful???
I would have let them test. In fact, it never would have been an issue at all. I would just tell them not to bow when we start class. That's it. Not an issue.
_________________
"It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenius." |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| JR 137 wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
Well, it's official...all 3 of them quit!! Citing that the SKKA doesn't respect their beliefs, so why should they respect ours. Fair enough!!
|
No matter what you do, once someone has God attached to anything, you're not going to change their mind. Rightfully or not, it's the way it is.
As an example Sensei8, would it change your opinion of bowing to a picture of your Soke and Dai-Soke at shomen or shinzen?
We start every class with the following:
Shinzen ni rei
Kaicho ni rei
Nidaime ni rei
Our shinzen has Seido Juku's kanji
There's a picture of Kaicho Nakamura
And a picture of his son Nidaime (second in line) Akira Nakamura
I don't view any of it as worship. I view it as showing respect individually for the entire organization and what it stands for, showing respect for Kaicho and what he's done, and for Nidaime and what he's done. Neither of those two individuals are Gods nor God-like in any way, shape or form. And if you asked them, they'd confirm just that. When I've taken class in their immediate presence I've bowed to them (along with the rest of the senior black belts), and I view their pictures as nothing different than that.
I'm not going to change your mind, and I don't want to; your beliefs are yours and you have them due to life experience. Those students have their beliefs, as misguided or ill informed as they may be; they are their beliefs and won't change.
But in all fairness, I can't see how it would have worked out for those students in the long run. If they were informed of this protocol/ritual/practice/tradition (I hate to use words that could be twisted or misinterpreted as religious) from the beginning, they shouldn't have started in the first place. It was only a matter of time before they found something else as a conflict of religious belief and left IMO. I'm surprised they started at all. |
To the bold type above...
My opinion of bowing DID change when I opened my own dojo. How so? I didn't put up anything anywhere in the dojo that I had to bow to, unlike how it was at the Hombu. That was their way, and I respected their way, and I LEARNED the true reasons as to why bowing in the MA exists at all. Even though I hang a picture of Jesus in my dojo, I don't bow to it because, to me, it's an outwardly act that's not necessary because my heart is looked upon by Jesus.
Did I lose respect for Soke and Dai-Soke by not having their pictures hanging in my dojo? NO!! Respect is a personal choice, and I have respect for them without having to put their pictures up for all to see.
"Well, most dojo's have a picture of the founder and their Sensei, if their Sensei isn't the founder, as a sign of reference and respect!!" Good for them...that's their choice, and I respect that wholeheartedly, but it doesn't mean I have to follow suit, as that's my choice, as well.
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
| JR 137 wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
Well, it's official...all 3 of them quit!! Citing that the SKKA doesn't respect their beliefs, so why should they respect ours. Fair enough!!
|
No matter what you do, once someone has God attached to anything, you're not going to change their mind. Rightfully or not, it's the way it is.
As an example Sensei8, would it change your opinion of bowing to a picture of your Soke and Dai-Soke at shomen or shinzen?
We start every class with the following:
Shinzen ni rei
Kaicho ni rei
Nidaime ni rei
Our shinzen has Seido Juku's kanji
There's a picture of Kaicho Nakamura
And a picture of his son Nidaime (second in line) Akira Nakamura
I don't view any of it as worship. I view it as showing respect individually for the entire organization and what it stands for, showing respect for Kaicho and what he's done, and for Nidaime and what he's done. Neither of those two individuals are Gods nor God-like in any way, shape or form. And if you asked them, they'd confirm just that. When I've taken class in their immediate presence I've bowed to them (along with the rest of the senior black belts), and I view their pictures as nothing different than that.
I'm not going to change your mind, and I don't want to; your beliefs are yours and you have them due to life experience. Those students have their beliefs, as misguided or ill informed as they may be; they are their beliefs and won't change.
But in all fairness, I can't see how it would have worked out for those students in the long run. If they were informed of this protocol/ritual/practice/tradition (I hate to use words that could be twisted or misinterpreted as religious) from the beginning, they shouldn't have started in the first place. It was only a matter of time before they found something else as a conflict of religious belief and left IMO. I'm surprised they started at all. |
To the bold type above...
My opinion of bowing DID change when I opened my own dojo. How so? I didn't put up anything anywhere in the dojo that I had to bow to, unlike how it was at the Hombu. That was their way, and I respected their way, and I LEARNED the true reasons as to why bowing in the MA exists at all. Even though I hang a picture of Jesus in my dojo, I don't bow to it because, to me, it's an outwardly act that's not necessary because my heart is looked upon by Jesus.
Did I lose respect for Soke and Dai-Soke by not having their pictures hanging in my dojo? NO!! Respect is a personal choice, and I have respect for them without having to put their pictures up for all to see.
"Well, most dojo's have a picture of the founder and their Sensei, if their Sensei isn't the founder, as a sign of reference and respect!!" Good for them...that's their choice, and I respect that wholeheartedly, but it doesn't mean I have to follow suit, as that's my choice, as well.
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Solid post. I respect why you don't have their pictures up and bow to them. And I know why you respect why I and others do what we do. The only wrong thing here is doing something against your beliefs because you're too scared to speak up IMO.
All IMO. |
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on the post.
