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bigpopparob2000
Orange Belt
Joined: 23 Jun 2003
Posts: 102
Location: Georgia
Styles: Tae Kwon Do, Gracie Jiu Jitsu
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 Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:56 am Post subject: Rolling with Other White Belts |
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I finally took the plunge and joined a Gracie Jiu Jitsu gym earlier this year. About a month ago, I earned my second stripe and was allowed to start rolling. I don’t mind rolling with colored belts. I know they’ll tap me out because they’re more advanced. Actually, many of them are very friendly, and they’ll give me opportunities to try the techniques I’ve learned during the roll. However, I found that some of the white belts tend to be hungry for a kill when they roll with another white belt.
I’m not aggressive when I roll. I mostly focus on trying to get dominant positions and escape vulnerable positions; however, I had an experience last Friday in which I couldn’t help but resist with much more intensity than usual. The instructor put me with a four stripe white belt. There was plenty of mat space, but he was at the far end near the wall. We shook hands, commenced grappling, and his first move was to topple me against the wall and take top mount. I really think he had picked his spot on the mat for that specific purpose. His plan was to put me against the wall, so I couldn’t practice any of my escapes, and he could just exhaust me until I gave up a submission.
He wasn’t able to lock in any submissions, but he put me in a few positions where I’m not sure if I was supposed to give up from the discomfort. For instance, he placed his forearm on my neck and sunk his weight on me. It didn’t cause a choke, but having the wall blocking me from moving made it somewhat painful. I didn’t tap. Rather, I resolved to myself I was going to escape that position if it was the only thing I did. Amazingly, despite being so compressed, after expending A LOT of energy, I managed to elbow escape to full guard. As soon as I did that, he backed out, and I was able to reposition myself away from the wall and continue rolling on more equal terms.
Was what he did appropriate? I realize submitting your opponent is the goal, but his strategy for doing so felt sort of cheap. I haven’t seen any of the colored belts or other white belts use such a tactic. Yes, sometimes a pair will end up against the wall, but it’s always unintentional. Should I have been less serious about not getting tapped out? The amount of pressure he put on me felt too excessive for the casual vibe the instructor tries to maintain during the lesson, and I don’t think matching his desire to win with an equal intensity to not lose was best. At the same time, if I just bow out whenever I find myself in a vulnerable position, I don’t think I’ll learn to apply my techniques against resisting opponents. What’s the best way to roll with another novice who really, really, really wants a victory? |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16424
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Rolling with other students can be challenging across a many avenues; some pleasant, while others aren't so pleasant.
While your training partner used the wall as an allied in his plan. I commend his use of the surroundings to his advantage because that's what we're suppose to do; adapt and conquer across the board.
Him being over aggressive is ok! Was the instructor near by? If the instructor was observant of your two rolling, but chose to say nothing, then I see no problem. Being put in situations is part of being trained. An instructor will gauge the training in the hopes that the student(s) will work the situation out, while still maintaining that no one's injured.
Training needs to be, has to be challenging for students to learn!! What I read in your OP was that while your training partner might've been aggressive and used the wall to his advantage, I see that your were provided a many challenges that you could learn from. Did you learn anything? If so, then it was a productive roll, for both of you.
With you not willing to tap, and I commend that as well, any discomfort and/or pain was your choice to endure. In the safety of the school, things are done this way and that way, and your instructor is that safety valve. But in the streets, you're on your own.
Did you panic? No!! You worked!!
I put my students in panic modes often because they've got to experience that, and they've got to learn how to work through it to the best of their abilities. I'll make life uncomfortable for them so they can learn to work through varying degrees of difficulties. Of course I don't hurt them, but I'll make them uncomfortable, like use the wall, one of my favorite things. In the UFC, for example, the cage wall can be an allied. Learn how to adapt, and this will take time. I'll lightly apply Kyusho jitsu points to them to make them uncomfortable.
His tactics, might've felt cheap, and you've seen no one else do this before, your training partner did you a favor: he challenged you! I love it when my training partner will challenge me on the floor because I need to improve my MA betterment, and the best way to do that is to be challenged across the board. To be put, and to feel in uncomfortable situations is LEARNING!! I love to learn!!
Your training partner was resistive, and that's good. Un-resistive training at times can serve no value to learning! Go with this and go with that, without any resistance at all, gives that false security, and that's unproductive.
The vibe is set by the instructor, and if your instructor allowed the roll to continue, he saw nothing negative at all, but only saw an opportunity for you, and your training partner, to learn through working in and out of the situation(s).
I feel you had a good roll! You finally got to a place where you could roll, and that meant to neutralize his allied wall; smart of you to do that because had you not, he would've STILL used that wall to his advantage.
Some students believe that they MUST win every single time on the floor! That's fine! DON'T LET THEM WIN; MAKE THEM EARN THE WIN!! If they earn the win, shake their hand with an acknowledging grin of approval!!
Do you feel that your instructor DIDN'T do his job in keeping you safe and free from harm?? If so, then the time is now to speak with your instructor about what you're feeling. If not, then train hard and train well!! I believe that you'll learn to be more aggressive, but that'll take time to figure that all out.
I see no harm and no foul in your roll, just opportunities to learn.
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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It's really up to the tone and tenor that your gym sets. There's no right or wrong answer. At my place we tend to lean on those guys and let them know that they're just pressing hard and pain compliance isn't the goal. But, some places are really in to it.
Here's the rub on letting people get away with it, lots of people will tap. Either they are new (in which case they are learning bad habits from their partner) and haven't yet gain their "jiu jitsu callous." Or they are guys who don't want to go to work the next day and have trouble eating lunch for no problem.
That tap that the person grinding gets from these is a bit false. In both cases, the person on top gets the idea they have a tactic that works. In a tournament of SD setting however, NO ONE will tap to it. He's developed a false sense of confidence in a tool that doesn't work.
Now, one could argue that by defeating it each and every time you teach the same lesson. True. That said, I don't want to get the grind every night to prove this point. I like to eat un-hindered.
But it's up to the instructor and tone of the classes.
Either way, nice work effecting the escape.
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http://alphajiujitsu.com/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJhRVuwbm__LwXPvFMReMww |
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el-peligroso
Yellow Belt
Joined: 16 Oct 2016
Posts: 34
Location: YYZ
Styles: Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Jujutsu, Kickboxing, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| They didn't let you start rolling until you earned your second stripe? :-? :lol: :o |
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| el-peligroso wrote: |
They didn't let you start rolling until you earned your second stripe?    |
The traditional Gracie Jiu Jitsu curriculum doesn't have people doing free sparring until they're blue belts. Ever wonder why schools have "white belt" and "blue belt" classes but never any "purple, brown, and black" classes? It refers to the techniques being shown.
In Gracie Jiu Jitsu, all white belt classes were your basic self defense- everything you'll see in Helios book, Royler, Renzo, etc. In this sense if you did do live rolling, you did so from a positional sense (i.e. escape a headlock, mount/cross side positions, etc.). Once a student was able to shown they could proficiently perform all of the self defense curriculum, they were promoted to blue belt. What we regard as a "normal" BJJ class are actually the blue belt classes, where technique is practiced from any number of positions and then live rolling at the end (you're practicing jiu jitsu vs jiu jitsu if you will). As competitions grew to become popular, many schools disregarded the self defense part of the white belt class and just brought people right in the door and had them rolling from the get go. I like this myself (I think most of us do) but the other approach tends to be good for people who actually want to learn the self defense aspect of BJJ |
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el-peligroso
Yellow Belt
Joined: 16 Oct 2016
Posts: 34
Location: YYZ
Styles: Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Jujutsu, Kickboxing, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
| el-peligroso wrote: |
| They didn't let you start rolling until you earned your second stripe? |
The traditional Gracie Jiu Jitsu curriculum doesn't have people doing free sparring until they're blue belts. Ever wonder why schools have "white belt" and "blue belt" classes but never any "purple, brown, and black" classes? It refers to the techniques being shown.
In Gracie Jiu Jitsu, all white belt classes were your basic self defense- everything you'll see in Helios book, Royler, Renzo, etc. In this sense if you did do live rolling, you did so from a positional sense (i.e. escape a headlock, mount/cross side positions, etc.). Once a student was able to shown they could proficiently perform all of the self defense curriculum, they were promoted to blue belt. What we regard as a "normal" BJJ class are actually the blue belt classes, where technique is practiced from any number of positions and then live rolling at the end (you're practicing jiu jitsu vs jiu jitsu if you will). As competitions grew to become popular, many schools disregarded the self defense part of the white belt class and just brought people right in the door and had them rolling from the get go. I like this myself (I think most of us do) but the other approach tends to be good for people who actually want to learn the self defense aspect of BJJ |
That approach wouldn't be too good for business these days. People want to start rolling right away and I think that is good because it weeds out the ego maniacs from the jump. |
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| el-peligroso wrote: |
| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
| el-peligroso wrote: |
| They didn't let you start rolling until you earned your second stripe? |
The traditional Gracie Jiu Jitsu curriculum doesn't have people doing free sparring until they're blue belts. Ever wonder why schools have "white belt" and "blue belt" classes but never any "purple, brown, and black" classes? It refers to the techniques being shown.
In Gracie Jiu Jitsu, all white belt classes were your basic self defense- everything you'll see in Helios book, Royler, Renzo, etc. In this sense if you did do live rolling, you did so from a positional sense (i.e. escape a headlock, mount/cross side positions, etc.). Once a student was able to shown they could proficiently perform all of the self defense curriculum, they were promoted to blue belt. What we regard as a "normal" BJJ class are actually the blue belt classes, where technique is practiced from any number of positions and then live rolling at the end (you're practicing jiu jitsu vs jiu jitsu if you will). As competitions grew to become popular, many schools disregarded the self defense part of the white belt class and just brought people right in the door and had them rolling from the get go. I like this myself (I think most of us do) but the other approach tends to be good for people who actually want to learn the self defense aspect of BJJ |
That approach wouldn't be too good for business these days. People want to start rolling right away and I think that is good because it weeds out the ego maniacs from the jump. |
Meh, yes and no. A good business approach is to offer both. There are people that are a little too timid and shy to jump right in and start training- and they tend to feel pressured being the only person that sits out during training. A self defense class is a perfect starter set for them. Likewise a guy that really wants to jump in with both feet is going to like a more modern approach. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16424
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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Every beginner wants to spar or roll or whatever so bad, UNTIL, they do it for the first time, which makes them realize that it's much more difficult than what they thought. I call these sessions...eye opening sessions!!
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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ninjanurse
KF VIP
Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Posts: 6154
Location: Upstate NY
Styles: TKD;Shotokan;JuJitsu;Tai Ji
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:00 am Post subject: |
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I have been in two different BJJ schools and in both the newbies rolled with everyone. I think it definitely depends on the atmosphere and energy of the school-too much ego is dangerous. A good instructor should keep on top of it and nip it in the bud quickly....afterall, we need training partners to learn and a shortage of them (due to injury or bruised ego) hampers our progress.
_________________
"A Black Belt is only the beginning."
Heidi-A student of the arts
Tae Kwon Do,Shotokan,Ju Jitsu,Modern Arnis
http://the100info.tumblr.com/ |
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on the post.
