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Rainbow_Warrior
Blue Belt
Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 349
Styles: Now : MMA/luta livre/Thai , before :Kung fu,kick boxing , boxing, amateur wrestling
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 Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: Scarf hold |
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I like to use this dominant position , usually switching from side control.
I find it very useful to pin the apponent , and when it is well done it磗 very difficult to escape. Shoulder lock with the legs is kinda easy to achieve from there (not the same for the arm bar ).
My question is , why dont we see many scarf holds in MMA ???
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Ace2021
Blue Belt
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 277
Location: Texas
Styles: Kyokushin Karate, Brazilian Jujitsu, Mixed Martial Arts
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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It's not really a submission, so I would assume the only thing to do is Ground n Pound from there (or switch to a sub). Unfortuantely the Mount position is much easier to access from there,if you can pass, and much more proficient to Ground n' Pound from.
I've seen Matt Hughes Ground n' Pound his opponents from there, before achieving mount to finish it.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 11994
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo,Hapkido, SCA Combat, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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I would guess you don't see the scarf hold as much because in MMA, they don't wear clothes. Otherwise, you are just holding on to their neck, and working for a choke, I guess.
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ying&yang
Purple Belt
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Posts: 513
Location: melbourne
Styles: JKD , and 15 others
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:44 am Post subject: |
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They dont use it in mma because its not much of a submission hold, and also like someone said they dont wear cloths near there head in mma.
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NightOwl
KF Sempai
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 981
Location: Japan
Styles: This and that, Rookie Judo
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| I would guess you don't see the scarf hold as much because in MMA, they don't wear clothes. Otherwise, you are just holding on to their neck, and working for a choke, I guess. |
I love this hold! While the grip is different, the body positioning is pretty much the same for no gi. You just need to clasp behind their arm and head. Anyhow, you can get a great deal of control with this and it is a great setup for something like a kimura if you so wish.
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ps1
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 1672
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:08 am Post subject: |
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It's easy to escape. Since you don't have the underhook on the far side, the opponent can slip out the back door. All you need to do is frame against the neck and rapidly jerk the arm out. Now the opponent is free to armbar you, take your back, or simply stand up depending on the reaction they get.
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NightOwl
KF Sempai
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 981
Location: Japan
Styles: This and that, Rookie Judo
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:43 am Post subject: |
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I've been shown it getting hooks under both arms/ riding up on their ribs a bit to help. Either way it isn't a static position- you'll have to adjust yourself as your opponent moves. Nevertheless it can lead to a transition to a better position but I am not that experienced at ground fighting so I usually take what I can get 
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Rainbow_Warrior
Blue Belt
Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 349
Styles: Now : MMA/luta livre/Thai , before :Kung fu,kick boxing , boxing, amateur wrestling
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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I have been told that there is not scarf hold without control of the arm.... If you control the arm , and 创walk 创 in circles when the opponent wanna exit , you cand hold him for a good time. Am i wronng ?
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 11994
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo,Hapkido, SCA Combat, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Rainbow_Warrior wrote: |
| I have been told that there is not scarf hold without control of the arm.... If you control the arm , and 创walk 创 in circles when the opponent wanna exit , you cand hold him for a good time. Am i wronng ? |
If I am visualizing what you are saying here, I think you might be on to something.
| ps1 wrote: |
| It's easy to escape. Since you don't have the underhook on the far side, the opponent can slip out the back door. All you need to do is frame against the neck and rapidly jerk the arm out. Now the opponent is free to armbar you, take your back, or simply stand up depending on the reaction they get. |
Is this more due to the fact that you don't have the oppenent's legs engaged?
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ps1
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 1672
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| NightOwl wrote: |
| I've been shown it getting hooks under both arms/ riding up on their ribs a bit to help. Either way it isn't a static position- you'll have to adjust yourself as your opponent moves. Nevertheless it can lead to a transition to a better position but I am not that experienced at ground fighting so I usually take what I can get |
If you have the underhook it's called Kuzure kesa gatame, broken scarf hold. It is, by far, the most secure of the two. When done properly and the weight is placed well, it's far harder to escape than the normal version because you have the ability to keep the opponent from turning onto his side.
| NightOwl wrote: |
| I have been told that there is not scarf hold without control of the arm.... If you control the arm , and 创walk 创 in circles when the opponent wanna exit , you cand hold him for a good time. Am i wronng ? |
A good opponent will get out rather easily. Especially when strikes are allowed and there's no gi.
Here's a link to pics of the two for anyone who doesn't know what we're talking about.
http://www.judo-for-all.com/Theory/Theory-pages/Kesa-Gatama.htm
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on the post.
