|
|
| Author |
Message |
TigerDude
Green Belt
Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 370
Styles: Goju Ryu
|
 Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:14 am Post subject: |
 |
|
The best & most painful finger locks are not pulling the fingers back, but pushing them forward beyond the joint's normal range of motion (making the circle of a closed finger smaller)
_________________
If you think only of hitting, springing, striking or touching the enemy, you will not be able actually to cut him. You must thoroughly research this. - Musashi |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
ps1
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 1713
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
Finger and toe locks are not allowed in grappling because they require no skill (not putting them down, but it is very easy to do to just about anyone). It would make you very unlikely to attmept to grab if you knew you would be submitted for doing so.
And yes, most tournaments, including Pan-Ams and NAGA consider wrists smal joints. In most tournaments they are only allowed to break hands open, not to submit the opponent.
_________________
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it."
www.ohiobjj.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
NightOwl
KF Sempai
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 988
Location: Japan
Styles: This and that, Rookie Judo
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
Now while finger locks I could understand, I don't see why wrist locks shouldn't be. Yes, you don't have as much time to tap out, but still it takes skill to pull them off.
_________________
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
~Theodore Roosevelt |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ps1
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 1713
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I agree with you on that. I know they are allowed in the Abu Dhabi and No-Gi adult events for NAGA. However, many smaller tourneys disallow them. My opinion is that this is good. The reason is that many of the judges in smaller tourneys are just guys who grapple and train at the school hosting the tourney and they may not have the experience to see that a competitor is in about to be hurt and the match should be stopped.
A prime example was at a tournament when a kid (teen division) was riding the crossmount. His opponent grabbed his head and twisted it until the kid rolled over. This is a clearly illegal move, however, the judge didn't even recognize it.
_________________
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it."
www.ohiobjj.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mmljpp
Orange Belt
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 110
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
pros-hurts more quicker
cans-hard to get to
not allowed in mma cause it is easier to break bones |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MMA_Jim
Yellow Belt
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
Posts: 81
Location: Philadelphia
Styles: BJJ, Muay Thai
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Small joint manipulation in JJJ and BJJ |
|
|
| NightOwl wrote: |
A: Why was it taken out of BJJ?
|
It wasnt taken out of BJJ, but it simply isnt emphasized. Small joint manipulations are taught in self defense BJJ to be used to de-escalate a situation, before the fight has started and before the adrelanine kicks in. Once the fight has initiated, small joint locks are practically useless and therefore are not to be relied upon as being a fight ender.
| NightOwl wrote: |
B: What are the pros and cons of small joint locks? |
The are not many pros to small joint locks. One is that they're usefull for breaking simple locks, for example the frankenstein style front choke. The cons are that small joint manipulation is simply not that effective and not as reliable as it is said to be.
| NightOwl wrote: |
C: Why is it not allowed in MMA? |
MMA nowadays has to balance itself between being proving grounds and also being entertainment. Looking at it from a promoters point of view:
1: Small joint locks are highly unlikely to stop a fight. Fighters will simply fight through the pain until the fight is stopped by another means
2: In the event that fingers are broken, said fighter is probably not going to fight until said finger is healed up, which put him on the sidelines for at least 5 months (2 months to heal, 2 more months to train for his next fight) in an optimistic scenario.
Remember how long Fedor was kept from fighting when he broke his thumb on the face of Gary Goodridge? Think about how much money Pride lost in the time that Fedor was kept from the ring.
So what you end up with is alot of fighters constantly needing more time off after a fight to heal up a broken finger, and if the fingers are constantly broken they'll less likely to continue their career due to arthritis. Eventually you're fight cards become weaker and weaker when your star attractions need more time to recover from their bouts. Bottom line is you lose alot of revenue
So, that all being said, small joint manipulation is simply not effective at being a fight ender or even having a significant role in a fight. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lupus yonderboy
Yellow Belt
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 69
Location: St. Louis MO
Styles: MMA - Boxing, Judo, Jits, Greco, Folk Wrestling
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Small joint manipulation in JJJ and BJJ |
|
|
| NightOwl wrote: |
While I have no experience with JJJ, supposedly it teaches more small joint manipulation as in comparison with its Brazilian offspring (which tends to focus on the larger joints). My questions are this:
A: Why was it taken out of BJJ?
B: What are the pros and cons of small joint locks?
C: Why is it not allowed in MMA? |
The major reason is because small joint locks don't really work when controlling a LARGER RESISTING opponent.
They work fine in class, when people are compliant and everyone is safe.
But against an enraged man, larger than you, your wrist lock is just going to make him angrier.
The reason a lot of functional arts concentrate on large joint destructions is because an attacker can't do much with a dislocated shoulder - can't even lift his arm.
But P L E N T Y of attackers are documented as fighting on (succesfully, too) with a broken wrist.
_________________
St. Louis MO MMA Training Club - Fight Club in St. Louis MO for training MMA Boxing and Wrestling Technique |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 13977
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, and I research Medieval Combat
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Small joint manipulation in JJJ and BJJ |
|
|
| lupus yonderboy wrote: |
The major reason is because small joint locks don't really work when controlling a LARGER RESISTING opponent.
They work fine in class, when people are compliant and everyone is safe.
But against an enraged man, larger than you, your wrist lock is just going to make him angrier. |
I have a younger brother who is quite large, and trying to do wrist locks on him is like trying to tackle an oak tree with a shoulder butt. In the end, you just get hurt.
_________________
Success is where preparation meets opportunity.
www.chiefswarpath.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Treebranch
Black Belt
Joined: 21 Mar 2003
Posts: 2263
Location: Glendale, California USA
Styles: Budo Taijutsu, Submission Grappling, Machado Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Kung Fu San Soo, Lima Lama, Taekwondo
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Small joint manipulation in JJJ and BJJ |
|
|
| MMA_Jim wrote: |
| NightOwl wrote: |
A: Why was it taken out of BJJ?
|
It wasnt taken out of BJJ, but it simply isnt emphasized. Small joint manipulations are taught in self defense BJJ to be used to de-escalate a situation, before the fight has started and before the adrelanine kicks in. Once the fight has initiated, small joint locks are practically useless and therefore are not to be relied upon as being a fight ender.
| NightOwl wrote: |
B: What are the pros and cons of small joint locks? |
The are not many pros to small joint locks. One is that they're usefull for breaking simple locks, for example the frankenstein style front choke. The cons are that small joint manipulation is simply not that effective and not as reliable as it is said to be.
| NightOwl wrote: |
C: Why is it not allowed in MMA? |
MMA nowadays has to balance itself between being proving grounds and also being entertainment. Looking at it from a promoters point of view:
1: Small joint locks are highly unlikely to stop a fight. Fighters will simply fight through the pain until the fight is stopped by another means
2: In the event that fingers are broken, said fighter is probably not going to fight until said finger is healed up, which put him on the sidelines for at least 5 months (2 months to heal, 2 more months to train for his next fight) in an optimistic scenario.
Remember how long Fedor was kept from fighting when he broke his thumb on the face of Gary Goodridge? Think about how much money Pride lost in the time that Fedor was kept from the ring.
So what you end up with is alot of fighters constantly needing more time off after a fight to heal up a broken finger, and if the fingers are constantly broken they'll less likely to continue their career due to arthritis. Eventually you're fight cards become weaker and weaker when your star attractions need more time to recover from their bouts. Bottom line is you lose alot of revenue
So, that all being said, small joint manipulation is simply not effective at being a fight ender or even having a significant role in a fight. |
You clearly don't understand what small joint manipulation is for. You're not going to end a fight with them, but it can be what leads to it. Most people can't end fights with punches and kicks. It's rare when the first punch thrown ends the fight. Why should wrist locks be expected to?
Do you know how to throw someone with a wrist lock? If you did you wouldn't be so quick to discount their effectiveness.
_________________
"It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who
are willing to endure pain with patience."
"Always go for the submission" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
NightOwl
KF Sempai
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 988
Location: Japan
Styles: This and that, Rookie Judo
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I've seen wrist locks in BJJ tap people out. However they are rare, and for a reason: they are difficult to pull off. Not many people who want to fight you are going to grab your wrist so you can pull off any of the countless classical wrist locks- they are probably just going to throw a punch. Likewise large joint locks are much easier, do much more damage, and will end a fight. I agree that the focus then should be on what works most of the time, as opposed to a high failure rate technique. However like I have said, if you are good at wrist locks, I have seen them come in handy. Like anything though, they should be practiced in a live environment with a resisting partner.
_________________
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
~Theodore Roosevelt |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
on the post.
