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NightOwl
KF Sempai
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 988
Location: Japan
Styles: This and that, Rookie Judo
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 Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:42 am Post subject: Small joint manipulation in JJJ and BJJ |
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While I have no experience with JJJ, supposedly it teaches more small joint manipulation as in comparison with its Brazilian offspring (which tends to focus on the larger joints). My questions are this:
A: Why was it taken out of BJJ?
B: What are the pros and cons of small joint locks?
C: Why is it not allowed in MMA?
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gzk
Blue Belt
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 278
Styles: Shootfighting, BJJ
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:53 am Post subject: |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_joint_manipulation
Small joint manipulation is an illegal technique in most combat sports that feature joint locking such as Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Judo, mixed martial arts and Sambo, since unlike standard joint locks, there is less of an opportunity to tap out before the small joint breaks.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 13977
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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I think that the decrease in the use of small-joint manipulation helps to increase the time spent in randori. I think this because it is easier to fall and roll with a shoulder lock than a finger twist. I could be wrong, though.
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ps1
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 1713
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: Small joint manipulation in JJJ and BJJ |
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| NightOwl wrote: |
A: Why was it taken out of BJJ? |
They are still allowed in the ADCC (not including fingers, but wrists and ankles are fair game). Professor Sauer, Royler Gracie, David Adiv, Rickson Gracie, and Helio Gracie still teach them. I think most sport oriented schools have removed them completely. Only a few of us use them and even then it's only on our instructor (cause he can recognize them fast enough to tap or escape). A more novice practitioner would probably fight it and get hurt.
| NightOwl wrote: |
| B: What are the pros and cons of small joint locks? |
Pros, they are very effective and because the leverage of the opponent is so great. Con: Very difficult to get the right grips smoothly before the opponent can defend.
| NightOwl wrote: |
| C: Why is it not allowed in MMA? |
For one, it would be nearly impossible to get a good wrist lock wearing those cumbersome gloves. Additionally, the respective MMA orginizations would have alot of fighters out due to broken wrists. In most of them ankle locks and heel hooks are allowed.
The reason fingers are generally not allowed, along with slamming your opponent (most grappling competitions) and can openers, is because it takes no skill or training to do. Other things that limit is the laws in the particular area of training or competition.
Hopes that helps a little.
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NightOwl
KF Sempai
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 988
Location: Japan
Styles: This and that, Rookie Judo
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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wrist locks count as small joint? Actually, I've seen wrist locks applied during BJJ when someone goes for the arm/ tries to hold onto it to set up an arm bar. It could come in handy....
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DokterVet
Green Belt
Joined: 05 Aug 2002
Posts: 442
Location: Ontario, Canada
Styles: Shootwrestling
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Small joints are fingers and toes, not wrists and ankles.
Damaging a large joint is much more debilitating to your opponent and can put an attacker into shock.
Attacking small joints uses fine motor movements, which tend to be severely impeded during an adrenaline rush as in a real fight. On the other hand, large joint locks can be applied with gross motor movements.
Finger locks can not be practiced as safely as locks on larger joints in a full-resistence, competitive environment, which is the biggest predictor for the successful application of a technique in a fight.
Professional fighters would simply not tap out to a finger lock, and they would just be stuck with a medical suspension.
This last one is a personal anecdote: some people are not affected by finger locks. One of my friends used to hand me his fingers and I'd try all the small joint locks I had learned through karate or seminars in other martial arts, and he would just laugh at me. I could grab his fingers with one hand and try to bend them straight back with the other hand and he would still just laugh at me. Now imagine him on an adrenaline rush as in a fight. He would pound my face in while I was fiddling with his fingers.
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Shootwrestling
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Ottman
Blue Belt
Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 346
Location: Boston
Styles: Tae Kwon Do, Jeet Kune Do (Concepts), Brazilian Ju Jitsu, Capoeira, Samurai combative arts (Nami Ryu Aiki Heiho)
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| DokterVet wrote: |
This last one is a personal anecdote: some people are not affected by finger locks. One of my friends used to hand me his fingers and I'd try all the small joint locks I had learned through karate or seminars in other martial arts, and he would just laugh at me. I could grab his fingers with one hand and try to bend them straight back with the other hand and he would still just laugh at me. Now imagine him on an adrenaline rush as in a fight. He would pound my face in while I was fiddling with his fingers. |
This is exactly why I don't use small joint locks. Not only do I know a bunch of people with double joints that aren't affected, but 4 of my 10 fingers (and I won't say which fingers  ) are double jointed and unaffected as well.
It just isn't worth it in the vast majority of scenarios because trying to grab a finger or two, especially when your opponent's hand is clenched in a fist trying to pound you, is nearly impossible, and much less efficient than a 'larger' counter like a parry and well placed kick, or a takedown and large joint lock. I don't think we'd see small joint locks in sport MMA even if they were legal. Just way too much other stuff going on, and way more effective means of winning than focusing on getting a finger lock that, if it is unsuccessful, will not damage your opponent, or score points in the match. It would be better to continuously kick and punch an opponent in the shoulder to wear him down, even though points aren't scored for this in many styles of competition.
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gzk
Blue Belt
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 278
Styles: Shootfighting, BJJ
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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Small joint manipulations were actually legal in early UFCs, but nobody seemed to use them, and I'm sure many of them knew how.
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NightOwl
KF Sempai
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 988
Location: Japan
Styles: This and that, Rookie Judo
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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Probably to some extent. Then again, so was eye gouging, and while it infamously blinded a fighter in one eye, the 'eye gougee' still won the match (then again, he was a pretty tough guy). Does small joint manipulation go beyond just fingers? Trying to apply it from cross-sides could work I suppose without greatly exposing yourself to a blow, but at that point you might as well go for a kimura lock or something of the like.
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gzk
Blue Belt
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 278
Styles: Shootfighting, BJJ
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:20 am Post subject: |
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The infamous eye gouging incident was, I believe Gerard Gordeau gouging Yukio Nakai in umm..Vale Tudo Japan? Big Jon Hess used an eye rake in UFC 5 I think, but that wasn't really what won it for him. But yeah, I agree, if you have the sort of control where you could attack a small joint, you may as well go for a bigger one.
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on the post.
