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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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 Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| mazzybear wrote: |
I'm all for a bit rough and tumble, Tuesday nights are the classes where we get to let loose and it's a lot of fun. What I don't like is when someone tells you to take it easy but expects to go hard themselves. For example we have a black belt in the club and she was paired with a young guy who has not been graded yet, not unusual as any senior grade knows to take it easy with youngsters/beginners. But she made a big fuss about not being hit in the face but then proceeded to whack this guy so hard as to make his head spring back, thankfully my instructor stopped her and gave her a proper talking to. The young guy to his credit just got on with things without making a fuss. But as a black belt she should've known better.
Mo. |
The rule we have and follow is don't hit anyone harder than you're willing to be hit. It you're hitting someone hard, and they're not returning the favor, lighten up.
After you've sparred with someone a few times, you get a feel for how hoed they want to be hit. At least that's how it's been in both dojos I've been a part of. Both dojos were on the smaller side though. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16427
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| JR 137 wrote: |
| mazzybear wrote: |
I'm all for a bit rough and tumble, Tuesday nights are the classes where we get to let loose and it's a lot of fun. What I don't like is when someone tells you to take it easy but expects to go hard themselves. For example we have a black belt in the club and she was paired with a young guy who has not been graded yet, not unusual as any senior grade knows to take it easy with youngsters/beginners. But she made a big fuss about not being hit in the face but then proceeded to whack this guy so hard as to make his head spring back, thankfully my instructor stopped her and gave her a proper talking to. The young guy to his credit just got on with things without making a fuss. But as a black belt she should've known better.
Mo. |
The rule we have and follow is don't hit anyone harder than you're willing to be hit. It you're hitting someone hard, and they're not returning the favor, lighten up.
After you've sparred with someone a few times, you get a feel for how hoed they want to be hit. At least that's how it's been in both dojos I've been a part of. Both dojos were on the smaller side though. |
That is a general rule that I've seen in and out of the Shindokan circle. Greg, our past Kancho, and I would usually start light, but by the time we had finished, we'd hit one another with purposeful resolve; that's just how the two of us trained with one another.
Like JR is saying, I'd go light to medium to hard, no matter the rank. However, the medium was saved for adults ranked 6th Kyu to Godan, and I'd go with a gauged hard with those Rokudan and up.
But the intensity that Greg and I chose was reserved for us, with a very, very, few that would engage with either of us, but only for the quick moment, just before they wanted no more of it.
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: So you think you are rough and tough? |
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| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
Can you take what you give?
Valid enough question.
Watch Benny Urquidez duke it out with an opponent that is close to his equal, experience and weight, just shows what a Kickboxing champion he really is.
Can you take a punch or a kick or throw, as good as you can give?
I feel it is not enough, to just be able to give as taking is equally important! |
I can take what I give. Unfortunately the older I get the more I have to take and the less I give. Not fair. 
As I have said before I was taught old school so I believe in hitting and getting hit. In fact this very point is why I had my knee blown out by one of my students. I feel that if your going to teach someone how to defend themselves you have to get physical and that does not mean slow speed or a game of patty cakes.
Having said that, the older I get the more I rely on my knowledge and techniques rather than brute force and speed. Other than conditioning my weapons I do not do much body conditioning. Better left to the young. The old you get the longer it takes to heal and the worse you feel the next day.
Tough does not translate into proficiency and does not make you a good fighter. It just means you can take a punch. I'll take skilled and intelligent over rough and tough any day of the week.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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mazzybear
Brown Belt
Joined: 30 Oct 2013
Posts: 675
Location: Scotland.
Styles: Wado Kai
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:35 am Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
| JR 137 wrote: |
| mazzybear wrote: |
I'm all for a bit rough and tumble, Tuesday nights are the classes where we get to let loose and it's a lot of fun. What I don't like is when someone tells you to take it easy but expects to go hard themselves. For example we have a black belt in the club and she was paired with a young guy who has not been graded yet, not unusual as any senior grade knows to take it easy with youngsters/beginners. But she made a big fuss about not being hit in the face but then proceeded to whack this guy so hard as to make his head spring back, thankfully my instructor stopped her and gave her a proper talking to. The young guy to his credit just got on with things without making a fuss. But as a black belt she should've known better.
Mo. |
The rule we have and follow is don't hit anyone harder than you're willing to be hit. It you're hitting someone hard, and they're not returning the favor, lighten up.
After you've sparred with someone a few times, you get a feel for how hoed they want to be hit. At least that's how it's been in both dojos I've been a part of. Both dojos were on the smaller side though. |
That is a general rule that I've seen in and out of the Shindokan circle. Greg, our past Kancho, and I would usually start light, but by the time we had finished, we'd hit one another with purposeful resolve; that's just how the two of us trained with one another.
Like JR is saying, I'd go light to medium to hard, no matter the rank. However, the medium was saved for adults ranked 6th Kyu to Godan, and I'd go with a gauged hard with those Rokudan and up.
But the intensity that Greg and I chose was reserved for us, with a very, very, few that would engage with either of us, but only for the quick moment, just before they wanted no more of it.
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Yeah, agree on all points made. It depends who I'm sparring with as to how hard I go. I remember when I first returned to the club one of the black belts told me she had her nose broken by a beginner, and that they're so concerned with hitting you that they can be dangerous, control just goes out the window. Something I've now seen for myself, people swinging their arms like windmills and the like.
So if I find myself paired up against a beginner, my main priority is evasion and finding space for a counter. But I like being paired with the senior grades and can go harder. But how hard I go is nothing compared to the two biggest guys in the club, that can only be described as bone crunching  The only thing about the way we spar is it doesn't transfer well to competition point sparring, there's always a lot of warnings for excessive contact and also a disqualification on occasion.
My instructor is of the old school full contact, no pads era and believes teaching too much "tippy tappy" could backfire when you really need to shut an attacker down. Does he have a point? I think maybe he does. so I'll enjoy how we do things in the club, take it easy with youngsters and beginners but let loose when the opportunity allows.
Mo.
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Be water, my friend. |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| mazzybear wrote: |
| sensei8 wrote: |
| JR 137 wrote: |
| mazzybear wrote: |
I'm all for a bit rough and tumble, Tuesday nights are the classes where we get to let loose and it's a lot of fun. What I don't like is when someone tells you to take it easy but expects to go hard themselves. For example we have a black belt in the club and she was paired with a young guy who has not been graded yet, not unusual as any senior grade knows to take it easy with youngsters/beginners. But she made a big fuss about not being hit in the face but then proceeded to whack this guy so hard as to make his head spring back, thankfully my instructor stopped her and gave her a proper talking to. The young guy to his credit just got on with things without making a fuss. But as a black belt she should've known better.
Mo. |
The rule we have and follow is don't hit anyone harder than you're willing to be hit. It you're hitting someone hard, and they're not returning the favor, lighten up.
After you've sparred with someone a few times, you get a feel for how hoed they want to be hit. At least that's how it's been in both dojos I've been a part of. Both dojos were on the smaller side though. |
That is a general rule that I've seen in and out of the Shindokan circle. Greg, our past Kancho, and I would usually start light, but by the time we had finished, we'd hit one another with purposeful resolve; that's just how the two of us trained with one another.
Like JR is saying, I'd go light to medium to hard, no matter the rank. However, the medium was saved for adults ranked 6th Kyu to Godan, and I'd go with a gauged hard with those Rokudan and up.
But the intensity that Greg and I chose was reserved for us, with a very, very, few that would engage with either of us, but only for the quick moment, just before they wanted no more of it.
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Yeah, agree on all points made. It depends who I'm sparring with as to how hard I go. I remember when I first returned to the club one of the black belts told me she had her nose broken by a beginner, and that they're so concerned with hitting you that they can be dangerous, control just goes out the window. Something I've now seen for myself, people swinging their arms like windmills and the like.
So if I find myself paired up against a beginner, my main priority is evasion and finding space for a counter. But I like being paired with the senior grades and can go harder. But how hard I go is nothing compared to the two biggest guys in the club, that can only be described as bone crunching The only thing about the way we spar is it doesn't transfer well to competition point sparring, there's always a lot of warnings for excessive contact and also a disqualification on occasion.
My instructor is of the old school full contact, no pads era and believes teaching too much "tippy tappy" could backfire when you really need to shut an attacker down. Does he have a point? I think maybe he does. so I'll enjoy how we do things in the club, take it easy with youngsters and beginners but let loose when the opportunity allows.
Mo. |
Good point mazzybear about shutting an attacker down.
I know that starting this topic off, was on taking as much as you can give.
But as martial artists are we not trying to do this.
We should be trying to beat the odds!
As being able to defend or beat an opponent that is much larger or faster or younger than ourselves.
Or when a person is using weapons against us when we have none.
Being more intelligent than the attacker to outsmart the opponent in the moment.
Or defending against multiple would-be attackers in many environments and situations.
Having a built in self defence mechanism wired in to our being that really works.
Give and take in the class or dojo is fine against fellow students.
In reality the odds on the street will most likely be against you, therefore training should be to beat those odds against you; fearlessly, as loosing no matter the odds against you, is not an option.
Knowing and believing this (confidence) will show on your face and mannerisms, most people will shy away from this type of person as you mean business...
Always train as if the odds are against you, therefore you need to make the extra effort or go the extra mile, to be not only better than yourself, but to be better than all of your potential enemies combined. |
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ShoriKid
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 900
Styles: Matsubyashi-Ryu, Okinawan Kempo, wrestling, bits of BJJ
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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Getting hit should never come as a "surprise" when you are training. Being able to take a bit of contact and not have your world fall apart is important, and you have to start building up that tolerance in training.
When we spar we set the contract by consent, each asking for more or less contact. When someone repeatedly goes hard, they are warned and then they start getting what they give. Usually until we know what they are going to do, new students are kept with the more experienced ones. Some never get it and have a rough way to go.
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Kisshu fushin, Oni te hotoke kokoro. A demon's hand, a saint's heart. -- Osensei Shoshin Nagamine |
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Bulltahr
Brown Belt
Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 727
Location: NEW ZEALAND
Styles: Shotokan, Seido Juku
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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I find medium/heavy contact is actually better for me at this stage of training, I think that I am more free to use more speed and block more effectively than trying to use "pull my punches" type techniques.
As somebody mentioned, once you have taken a few heavier shots, you realise that it's not the end of the world.
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"We don't have any money, so we will have to think" - Ernest Rutherford |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16427
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:12 am Post subject: |
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I suppose that Greg and I exchanged with one another on the floor at the harshest level because we wanted to forge ourselves to what the rigorous of actual contact would be in a real life and death situation.
The reality of there being no patty-cake, no pulled punches, no give and takes, no gauging, no by the rules, and so on and so forth; just how it is in a real fight between two human beings that are heck bent on destroying one another for whatever the reason(s) might be.
The harder we engaged with one another, the better, for us. Those bouts were another way of learning for us. I know I learned a lot from the manner of which Greg and I sparred with one another with such determined resolve.
How to better understand what Dai-Soke was teaching us than to test it in as close to a real fight, and the way that Greg and I sparred with one another, it was akin to a real fight, except we were best of friends, on and off the floor.
In the manner of how, for example, we "block" in Shindokan, is the furthest thing from "blocking". We RECEIVE the attack, akin to what a wide receiver does on the gridiron. The way we "block"/receive the attack takes many years to understand it and many additional years to be competent in it. We drill how to receive, but to drill on how to receive in live combat, well, that's a whole different animal.
Drills are good for nothing if there's no substance behind them!! Talk about limitations, and after the introduction of any said drill, that's what one's left with: Limitations!!
I don't want supposed abilities!! I want battle tested abilities. What can you and I really learn from one another if all's we ever do is the minimum, and never the maximum...and then some?! Not much, imho!!
Oftentimes than not, our sparring methods, Greg and I, were described by onlookers as well as fellow MAists, as cold and barbaric. With which we'd gladly express our gratitude because that's exactly what we both were searching for...cold and barbaric...the more, the better.
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo
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| Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not much for physical altercations (though sparring can be fun in class!) One of my instructors, on the other hand... if someone on the street picked a fight with him, it'd be the best day of his life. Okay, I'm exaggerating a bit, but he is scrappy! He's also a pretty physically tough. He does manual labor 10 hours per day, and trains in TKD daily. I'm pretty sure he sleeps standing up.
_________________
5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do
(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo) |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16427
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| singularity6 wrote: |
| I'm not much for physical altercations (though sparring can be fun in class!) One of my instructors, on the other hand... if someone on the street picked a fight with him, it'd be the best day of his life. Okay, I'm exaggerating a bit, but he is scrappy! He's also a pretty physically tough. He does manual labor 10 hours per day, and trains in TKD daily. I'm pretty sure he sleeps standing up. |
To the bold type above...
Now...that's funny as all get out!!
 
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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on the post.
