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TJS
Black Belt
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 1843
Styles: boxing, Thai boxing, BJJ,
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 Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2003 11:24 am Post subject: |
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no, you learn technique thru drills...you learn HOW to do something from drills...when you sprar you lean how to APPLY it.
i think your overestimating the amount of technique in an eye gouge.
groin kicks/knees are a combative just like any other punch/kick etc..you should get used to throwing them and blocking/countering them in a fight. |
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JerryLove
Black Belt
Joined: 19 Sep 2002
Posts: 1274
Location: Tampa, FL, US
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2003 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| no, you cant get good at defending hair pulling or biting ...anyone can do it theny dont take any skill. |
WHAT? You can't get good at stoping someone from getting the hand to your eye, but you can get good at stopping someone from gettting their foot to your groin?
Anyone can kick you in the groin too, the skill somes in getting past an opponent's defenses, and that's no different from a kick than from a strike to gouge.
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| well if you are refering to breaks as in Arm bars/leg locks etc..then you practice 100% yes...you relese the hold when they tap out...if they tap out you know they were unable to get out of the position and had to submit to avoid a break. |
But in a fight, I'm not going for the submit, I *want* the break. Then it doesn't matter if they could get out, it matters if I ever got it in the first place.
That said, sparring for a submit is committing the wrong reflexes to memory.
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| thats the great thing about Grappling you can practice 100% |
that's like saying light-contact punching is "100%".
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| eye gouging...once again it does not take much skill and you cant really spar with it...eye gouging is more of a grappling move..close range combat..it not that easy to poke someone in the eye like a punch...we do parctice drills though. |
You seem to contradict your self. is it "not easy" or does it "not take much skill"?
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no, you learn technique thru drills...you learn HOW to do something from drills...when you sprar you lean how to APPLY it.
i think your overestimating the amount of technique in an eye gouge. |
So it's easy to do but hard to pull off. And Drills teach you to do something, and sparring how to pull it off; so you should not drill eye gouges but you should spar with them.
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| groin kicks/knees are a combative just like any other punch/kick etc..you should get used to throwing them and blocking/countering them in a fight |
And pulling out eyes is not combative? and breaking limbs with grapples is not combative?
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TJS
Black Belt
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 1843
Styles: boxing, Thai boxing, BJJ,
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2003 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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WHAT? You can't get good at stoping someone from getting the hand to your eye, but you can get good at stopping someone from gettting their foot to your groin?
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not that it' common but if you were to throw an "eye gouge" it could be dofended the same way a punch could..A groin kick requires diffrent technique than any other kick.
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| But in a fight, I'm not going for the submit, I *want* the break. Then it doesn't matter if they could get out, it matters if I ever got it in the first place. |
obviously if they can get out of the position your not going to break anything. thats the entire point.
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| That said, sparring for a submit is committing the wrong reflexes to memory. |
as opposed to not practicing them at all and having the "our techniques are too deadly to practice attitude"?
if someone submitts it's becuase they had no other option to avoid a break. it's rediculoud to say your not practicing realistically just beacuase you dont actually break it.
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that's like saying light-contact punching is "100%".
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no not at all, in grappling you can practice 100% with your opponet resisting 100%..just like you can spar full contact...does that mean you have to knockout you opponet after you daze them in order to spar full contact?
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| You seem to contradict your self. is it "not easy" or does it "not take much skill"? |
does it take alot of skill to throw a straight punch? no. does that mean you could land them at will against a good fighter?
you put way to much empasis on this. eye gouges are not the magic soultion to everything.
besides this has nothing to do with the topic i started. |
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JerryLove
Black Belt
Joined: 19 Sep 2002
Posts: 1274
Location: Tampa, FL, US
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2003 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| not that it' common but if you were to throw an "eye gouge" it could be dofended the same way a punch could..A groin kick requires diffrent technique than any other kick. |
Firstly, you are not beign consistant... you said "eye gouging is more of a grappling move", and now you discuss defending an eye strike thrown as a punch.
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| A groin kick requires diffrent technique than any other kick. |
Really? So turning, moving, shin blocks, knee spears, and slapping the kick will not work on groin kicks? We use them constantly in my sparring and I defend them in a manner similar to most other low-line kicks.
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| obviously if they can get out of the position your not going to break anything. thats the entire point. |
That's not true at all. Take a really basic move like a standing arm bar. It's easy to escape even if you get put in it. If I put you in one in a fight, it won't matter if you escape because your arm was immediately broken (to be specific, your elbow was hyperextended). A great deal of grapples which are poor subission grapples work fine as breaks... And since most any grapple can be escaped from, the obvious preference (certainly mine) is to not even try to get my opponent to submit, but simply to break what I can.
That said (this is still "combative martial arts" after all), grappling for a submission is not 100%, full force, or even training the correct reflex.
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| as opposed to not practicing them at all and having the "our techniques are too deadly to practice attitude"? |
No, as opposed to you admitting that what you are doing is "the best we can come up with to get the skills" and not delude yourself and others into believing it si "100%".
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| if someone submitts it's becuase they had no other option to avoid a break. it's rediculoud to say your not practicing realistically just beacuase you dont actually break it. |
So then sparring where you pull everything is fine and it's rediculious to say your not practiceing realisitically just cause you didn't follow-through?
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| no not at all, in grappling you can practice 100% with your opponet resisting 100% |
Why do you believe you can't practice light-contact sparring 100% with your opponent resisting 100%? You are not being consistant.
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| does it take alot of skill to throw a straight punch? no. does that mean you could land them at will against a good fighter? |
So people shouls not train their stright punch either because it doesn't take skill?
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| you put way to much empasis on this. eye gouges are not the magic soultion to everything. |
It's only in your imagination that I said anything of the kind... I have not discussed their effacy at all. you keep making stuff up.
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| besides this has nothing to do with the topic i started. |
So weather it would be consistant for a school which sparred with groin kicks to spar with eye gouges is not on-topic with what we think of a school sparring with groin kicks? How do you come to that conclusion?
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Martial_Artist
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 935
Location: Western USA.
Styles: The Pure Art
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2003 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Hey guys, let's not try to nit-pick on little sentences. This, so far, is an interesting thread to read. A lot of good information is being brought out into the open through discussion. Let's not let our emotions tangle up an otherwise worthy thread.
Keep the discussion going. Some very good points are being made.
MA.
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"I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination.
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." Einstein |
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kenpo4life
Blue Belt
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 279
Location: Hayward, Ca
Styles: Kenpo
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2003 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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I personally spar with groin kicks all the time. We do wear a cup obviously. See, and I dont mean to pick on the TKD folks and other high kickers, you can really learn the impracticality of some moves shen it exposes your groin in the process. I have seen a lot of really good high kickers lose a lot of their arsenal because they knew that the potential to get kicked in the nay-nays was available. I think WAY too many martial artists over-rely on kicks. I say that in jeans, or high heels, or a skirt or something, your hands are your mos practical solution.
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If my survival means your total destruction, then so be it. |
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TJS
Black Belt
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 1843
Styles: boxing, Thai boxing, BJJ,
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2003 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| you said "eye gouging is more of a grappling move", |
exactly, thats why I said "not that it' common " when refering to a eye gouge thrown like a punch
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Really? So turning, moving, shin blocks, knee spears, and slapping the kick will not work on groin kicks? We use them constantly in my sparring and I defend them in a manner similar to most other low-line kicks.
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Similar actions..not the same. Why do alot of Muay Thai fighters have trouble defending their groin against someone who is good at throwing gron kicks? they obviously have no problem blocking low kick yet this usually throws them off.
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the obvious preference (certainly mine) is to not even try to get my opponent to submit, but simply to break what I can.
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how many arms have you broken with these techniques?
there is alot more ot grappling than just the lock/choke...positioning/escapes/takedowns/takedown defenses/reversals/ etc....that IS all paracticed 100%
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So then sparring where you pull everything is fine and it's rediculious to say your not practiceing realisitically just cause you didn't follow-through?
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If I hit you hard enough to dissorient you then it's neccesary to keep hitting you? no becuase obviously at that point you can finish it.
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Why do you believe you can't practice light-contact sparring 100% with your opponent resisting 100%? You are not being consistant.
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i never said you cant spar 100% i just think it's easier in grappling.
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| So people shouls not train their stright punch either because it doesn't take skill? |
no I said it does not take skill to throw a stright punch, it takes skill to land them properly on a resisting opponet.
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| So weather it would be consistant for a school which sparred with groin kicks to spar with eye gouges is not on-topic with what we think of a school sparring with groin kicks? How do you come to that conclusion? |
so if i asked why a certain stlye does not use arm locks we should start discussing if they use hook punches? the two have nothign in common, you are trying to make things up
try sticking ot the original topic, here is what it was-
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| Does anyone else spar with Groin kicks?.....so why does no one do it? |
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JerryLove
Black Belt
Joined: 19 Sep 2002
Posts: 1274
Location: Tampa, FL, US
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2003 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| exactly, thats why I said "not that it' common " when refering to a eye gouge thrown like a punch |
That would not be a gouge but a strike. I still see no reason to exclude them as "simple" any more than you would exclude punches.
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| Similar actions..not the same. Why do alot of Muay Thai fighters have trouble defending their groin against someone who is good at throwing gron kicks? they obviously have no problem blocking low kick yet this usually throws them off. |
Your experience here differs from mine. What is the intrensic difference between the groin and the knee?
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| how many arms have you broken with these techniques? |
Are you arguing that grappling techniques cannot / are not generally capable of hyperextending joints?
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| there is alot more ot grappling than just the lock/choke...positioning/escapes/takedowns/takedown defenses/reversals/ etc....that IS all paracticed 100% |
Except where those could involve lockas, chokes, or eye attacks (and that's just the list from this thread so far.. .I'd bet we could add a dozen more "excepts"). Not to mention the realism problems of relying on the surface.. or do you do suplex throws on concrete? One wonders if "100% on foam" is really 100%.
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| I never said you cant spar 100% i just think it's easier in grappling. |
You criticized techniques which are pulled while pushing grappling thechniques which are pulled as not being pulled.
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| no I said it does not take skill to throw a stright punch, it takes skill to land them properly on a resisting opponet. |
So a straight punch has the same characteristics as an eye-gouge (easy to do, hard to land). You see no value in including eye-gouging as a part of sparring; shall I presume you see no value in punching as part of sparring?
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| so if i asked why a certain stlye does not use arm locks we should start discussing if they use hook punches? the two have nothign in common, you are trying to make things up |
You and others drew conclusions inconsistant with your own stances. I've pointed them out for you.
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try sticking ot the original topic, here is what it was-
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Does anyone else spar with Groin kicks?.....so why does no one do it? |
Yes. I spar every class, and groin kicks, hits, knees, and most anythign else are part of that sparring.
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TJS
Black Belt
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 1843
Styles: boxing, Thai boxing, BJJ,
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2003 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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That would not be a gouge but a strike. I still see no reason to exclude them as "simple" any more than you would exclude punches.
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because you cant realistically spar with eye gouges, unless you are not wearing gloves, if so you would have to fouces soley on eye gouges, unless you were willing to fight bare knuckle, if so then that would be the best way.
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Your experience here differs from mine. What is the intrensic difference between the groin and the knee?
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It's not more diffiucult or anything, they are simply not used to people kicking their groin..I just used MT fighter as an example because they are obviously know for being proffivent at blocking with their legs..most people arent thats why you should spar with them.
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| Are you arguing that grappling techniques cannot / are not generally capable of hyperextending joints? |
I was simply saying you should practice them on a resisting opponet.
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| Not to mention the realism problems of relying on the surface.. or do you do suplex throws on concrete? One wonders if "100% on foam" is really 100%. |
its protection, just like boxing gloves or shin gaurds or a mouthpiece..obviously you would get hurt alot more without these..just like you would on concrete.
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| Not to mention the realism problems of relying on the surface |
i dont rely on suface, the last place I want to be is the ground..so ?I do end up there it's proabably not by choice and if im there I at least want to be on top.
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| You criticized techniques which are pulled while pushing grappling thechniques which are pulled as not being pulled. |
dont know what your talking about there.
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| You see no value in including eye-gouging as a part of sparring; shall I presume you see no value in punching as part of sparring? |
no eye gouges are simply not very easy to implement if you wan to use other combatives because of the gloves. |
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JerryLove
Black Belt
Joined: 19 Sep 2002
Posts: 1274
Location: Tampa, FL, US
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2003 10:28 am Post subject: |
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I don't wear gloves for sparring, and we do spar on concrete (which is to say carpeting over a slab floor). I think that padding changes too much in terms of feed-back on the body and gloves remove way oo much in terms of manipulative skills (not to mention how much easier it is to block when both people are wearing gloves of any size).
Also, considering how little padding can help (doesn't to anything for a kick to the knee anyway), I don't look at padded-up faighting as unrestricted enough. It's fun mind you, but I put it more in the role of "sport with fighting applications" than specifically combative practice.
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on the post.
