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joesteph
Red Belt
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 832
Location: Bayonne, NJ USA
Styles: Soo Bahk Do
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 Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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I checked it out from the drop-down menu, DWx, and centered on the following:
Article 53. Attacking Tools
53.1 Hand parts – fore fist, back fist, side fist, knife hand and reverse knife hand.
53.2 Foot parts - ball of the foot, foot sword, back heel, instep and sole.
Article 54. Target Area
54.1 Face and neck area at the front and sides (excluding the back).
54.2 Frontal area of trunk of the body from a line drawn from the armpit vertically down to the waist on each side (excluding the back).
54.3 When the arm, from the elbow to the fingers, is in contact with the body, then this is regarded as part of the body, by which the opponent can therefore score points.
When I read this, I thought it was contact sparring, and I didn't like the reference to having the front of the neck being a permitted target.
Article 55. Criteria for Point Award
All attacks will be valid only when they are stopped 2cm away from the target.
Then when I read this, I concluded it was non-contact, but likely with protective gear. 2cm? Unless I'm mistaken, this is a difficult stopping point to reach; isn't it likely that you either make contact or are too far away? 
Article 56. Fouls
56.1 Warnings
56.1.1 For the following offences
I selected this to focus on where punches were referred to.
Three or more consecutive punch without a valid follow up technique
Nope, no two-punch rule 
56.1.2. One (1) point will be deducted for every 3 warnings.
Here's the only "punching penalty" I could see.
I respect not wanting to turn a tournament match into a brawl, but the additional rule of two consecutive punches as a limit is simply too conservative to me. Does the tournament permit contact, or follow the non-contact (2cm) rule? Was that out-of-control six-footer you described making contact? 
If so, I found:
56. 2. Deduction of Points for serious fouls (Yellow card)
56.2.1
And in its list:
Excessive contact
_________________
~ Joe |
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Tiger1962
Purple Belt
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 578
Location: New Yawk
Styles: Interested in all styles.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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I have participated in a lot of tournaments over the years and its sad to say that the rules are often broken, from either the judges themselves or the participant.
The rules could be light contact and heavy contact is done or NO contact and you SEE contact even if its clearly stated NO contact. There are other things too such as incorrect scoring, favoritism, etc. The list goes on.
I have also often helped out at tournaments as either a scorekeeper or judge. It really disappoints me to see things *sometimes* that go on that really shouldn't. I really love participating in tournaments but lately its become more of a disappointment. It didn't happen at EVERY tournament I've been to, but the last few it has and most recently.
Take it with a grain of salt, that's my advice. Sometimes you can't fight "city hall" or "politics".
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"You have a choice. You can throw in the towel, or you can use it to wipe the sweat off of your face." - Gatorade Ad |
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DWx
KF Sensei
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 1323
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| Do you wear chest protectors, and fight to knockout? |
No chest protectors and no headguards although if its a local tourny with no mats, sometimes headguards are compulsory. Don't fight to knockout but fight for points. However if knockout occurs and the technique that did it wasn't "excessive" then the person still standing will get the win.
| joesteph wrote: |
I checked it out from the drop-down menu, DWx, and centered on the following:
Article 53. Attacking Tools
53.1 Hand parts – fore fist, back fist, side fist, knife hand and reverse knife hand.
53.2 Foot parts - ball of the foot, foot sword, back heel, instep and sole.
Article 54. Target Area
54.1 Face and neck area at the front and sides (excluding the back).
54.2 Frontal area of trunk of the body from a line drawn from the armpit vertically down to the waist on each side (excluding the back).
54.3 When the arm, from the elbow to the fingers, is in contact with the body, then this is regarded as part of the body, by which the opponent can therefore score points.
When I read this, I thought it was contact sparring, and I didn't like the reference to having the front of the neck being a permitted target. |
It is contact sparring although its meant to be semi-contact. Bit of a loose term though because at lower belts and pre-national competitions this can mean a tap whereas when its higher colour grade / blackbelts at national and international, the contact is stepped up a bit. If you compete on this level its generally accepted that you can hit and will be hit back. My sister, for example, got a bloody nose from a punch in the first round of her sparring at the European champs this year and another lad from the squad got a fat cheek.
| joesteph wrote: |
Article 55. Criteria for Point Award
All attacks will be valid only when they are stopped 2cm away from the target.
Then when I read this, I concluded it was non-contact, but likely with protective gear. 2cm? Unless I'm mistaken, this is a difficult stopping point to reach; isn't it likely that you either make contact or are too far away? |
It says you stop at 2cm but nobody does. You train to hit and its usually ok if you do. Watch most videos and its unikely you'll see people stopping.
| joesteph wrote: |
Article 56. Fouls
56.1 Warnings
56.1.1 For the following offences
I selected this to focus on where punches were referred to.
Three or more consecutive punch without a valid follow up technique
Nope, no two-punch rule
56.1.2. One (1) point will be deducted for every 3 warnings.
Here's the only "punching penalty" I could see.
I respect not wanting to turn a tournament match into a brawl, but the additional rule of two consecutive punches as a limit is simply too conservative to me. Does the tournament permit contact, or follow the non-contact (2cm) rule? Was that out-of-control six-footer you described making contact?
If so, I found:
56. 2. Deduction of Points for serious fouls (Yellow card)
56.2.1
And in its list:
Excessive contact |
The two punch rule is a more recent addition (and only for this particular ITF). Those rules are from 2005 and so are unlikely to show this, I was just using them as a general reference.
Just to clarify, the two-punch rule is only implemented in one of the ITFs (there are three). ITF-NK, which is the group under the leadership of Prof. Chang Ung, is the one that uses it. I know ITF-C doesn't and as far as I am aware neither does ITF-V. I am a member of and usually compete under ITF-NK. I fought the six-footer in an ITF-C local tournament to which my dojang was invited. I used to be a member of ITF-C so was used to fighting this way for the most part of my training but now have been with ITF-NK for just over a year. My initial post (which is almost a year ago) was my first time fighting under these "new" rules and given the circumstances of which I found out about them I was far from happy to compete under them. But since training and working on it, and competing since then, I think I actually like these rules better. As far as the sport side of my training is concerned, I am happy to play by these rules even if they don't necessarily translate well to other areas of training.
_________________
"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
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joesteph
Red Belt
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 832
Location: Bayonne, NJ USA
Styles: Soo Bahk Do
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| DWx wrote: |
No chest protectors and no headguards although if its a local tourny with no mats, sometimes headguards are compulsory. Don't fight to knockout but fight for points. However if knockout occurs and the technique that did it wasn't "excessive" then the person still standing will get the win. . . .
It is contact sparring although its meant to be semi-contact. Bit of a loose term though because at lower belts and pre-national competitions this can mean a tap whereas when its higher colour grade / blackbelts at national and international, the contact is stepped up a bit. . . .
It says you stop at 2cm but nobody does. You train to hit and its usually ok if you do. Watch most videos and its unikely you'll see people stopping.
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I understand much better now. Funny how the rules turn out to be "theory" (it exists on paper) rather than "practice" (tournaments).
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Just to clarify, the two-punch rule is only implemented in one of the ITFs (there are three). ITF-NK, which is the group under the leadership of Prof. Chang Ung, is the one that uses it. . . .
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It explains discrepancies better when it's realized that there are three ITF organizations, not one, and though each has essentially similar rules, here-and-there we'll find a different viewpoint about how tournaments are regulated.
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My initial post (which is almost a year ago) was my first time fighting under these "new" rules and given the circumstances of which I found out about them I was far from happy to compete under them. But since training and working on it, and competing since then, I think I actually like these rules better.
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So you've not only adjusted, you've come to prefer the changes. Well, it's better to be a happy camper than a sad one.
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As far as the sport side of my training is concerned, I am happy to play by these rules even if they don't necessarily translate well to other areas of training.
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The philosophical side of DWx has spoken! _____  _____
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~ Joe |
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DWx
KF Sensei
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 1323
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| joesteph wrote: |
The philosophical side of DWx has spoken! _____ _____ |
I can be quite philosophical... sometimes! 
_________________
"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
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on the post.
