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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 11994
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo,Hapkido, SCA Combat, and I research Medieval Combat
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 Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 12:17 am Post subject: Tai Chi and combat effectiveness |
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I finished off an article in Classical Fighting Arts magazine just the other day. Normally, when I see an article on the subject of Tai Chi, I don't get all that excited about it. However, the tendencies that I have compell me to read every article in every MA magazine that I get. Reading this article, was pretty eye-opening, and enjoyable.
The title page of the article had an excerpt stating that "traditional" Taijiquan is technically 75% or more Wrestling/grappling oriented, and a diligent student can acquire real self-defense skills in a matter of months, as opposed to years.
With my mentality toward the Martial Arts in general, this grabbed my attention immediately. It began with a brief history of the origin of the style, from a retired General of the Ming dynasty named Chen Wang Ting, and had its base as a military Martial Art, in which the training had to provide the soldiers with an ability to defend themselves successfully if need be in a matter of months.
The article also made many analogies relating movements in Taijiquan to Western Wrestling, which was also nice to see. Hardly mentioned at all in the article was the presence of Chi, thus removing some of the mysticsm that seems to surround the style today, and leaving a more attainable style of fighting.
Overall, the article was enjoyable, and it really cleared up views of what Taijiquan should really be.
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NightOwl
KF Sempai
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 981
Location: Japan
Styles: This and that, Rookie Judo
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 3:59 am Post subject: |
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It is true that taichiquan contains(ed) stand up grappling. The focus on chi etc is a modern aspect that many times takes away from its originally intended purpose of combat. I'll go dig it up but I've linked to a taichi site calling for a return to this mindset. Unfortunately the vast majority of the taichiquan world views it as some sort of exercise or movements designed to build up your chi (or at least resistance training as a bad thing), whereas if you read about how it was practiced you find (as you did) that this was not the case at all.
Dismantling the art however, started off before taichi became popular in the west. In china form variations were decided to be used as exercise and things went downhill from there. A lot of the crazy chi talk comes up in the west though. Either way 90% percent of taichiquan places aren't going to have a martial focus.
Here are some examples of taijiquan:
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-7360397892170796596&q=taiji+shuai
http://www.oxfordwudang.com/video_footage.0.html
Most enlightening is this interview with Yang family member, wushu coach, and sanshou camp YANG FUKUI. http://www.wutehtaiji.com/articletext.html#tc245
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BF: How was the second generation of the Yang family affected by their fathers’ reinterpretation of Taijiquan?
YF: Yang Ban Hou and Yang Chen Hou’s practices were both somewhat different from each other, as well as from modern practice. I think if they or their father were alive today and observed modern Taijiquan, they would not recognize much of what we call the Yang style Taijiquan.
BF: How did they practice then?
YF: First of all, they devoted most of their practice to gongfu and martial arts, not to health or "spiritual development," although these two latter aspects certainly underlied their practice. Their emphasis was different. For example, they never practiced more than a two or three form or movements in sequence, in order to develop fighting skill and gongfu, and they never linked more than five forms together. There were no such things as the 24 or 85 or 108 form Taijiquan. Only two or three forms at a time were used for the solo practice of gongfu.
According to my grandfather, Yang Chen Hou’s practice stressed more form combinations while his brother, Yang Ban Hou, put more emphasis upon push hands for fighting and two-man practice. Yang Ban Hou also had fewer students than younger brother, perhaps because his teaching sessions were very rough and painful, as there was a lot of contact. Similarly, in the third generation, my great grandfather, Yang Xiao Hou, was also more interested in push hands and fighting. He had far fewer students than his brother Yang Cheng-fu. He was more "closed door" and interested in preserving the family’s practice. Yang Cheng-fu was a more of a public figure, and his desire was t promote the study of Yang style Taijiquan throughout China.
Therefore, he created the Taolu, which is known in English as "The Long Form." |
Anyhow as I've mentioned many times before, kung fu has throughout most of its history been about fighting, and as such people trained for that including sparring/getting into fights. Even now there are still full contact kung fu fights; this Lei tai fight from taiwan is done full contact with no padding. The excuse that many kung fu places use that they 'are too deadly to spar' doesn't fly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIuUeu2B3qA
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DWx
KF Sensei
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 1035
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: |
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My teacher always stresses the martial applications in our form. She points them out at every technique and shows application. I think that because it is more of a soft art that has kinda become popular with the older generation for the health benefits you don't really see much in the way of martial art about it. Thought this was quite a nice video also: http://youtube.com/watch?v=WqKHOg9DZfU
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"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 11994
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo,Hapkido, SCA Combat, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 11:19 am Post subject: |
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Great points, guys. Nice links, too.
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Kajukenbopr
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 921
Styles: Kajukenbo - Emperado Method
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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http://youtube.com/watch?v=3UPg1tb6puc
the music is Tacky, but, the applications come from Taichi forms.
Taichi can be cool, if applied right
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 11994
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo,Hapkido, SCA Combat, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| Kajukenbopr wrote: |
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3UPg1tb6puc
the music is Tacky, but, the applications come from Taichi forms.
Taichi can be cool, if applied right |
I have seen that one before. I like it. I would love to see a class like that. Thanks for sharing!
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NightOwl
KF Sempai
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 981
Location: Japan
Styles: This and that, Rookie Judo
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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I believe that the Chen family style usually is the one that focuses on application work as opposed to just forms.
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Kajukenbopr
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 921
Styles: Kajukenbo - Emperado Method
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| Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| NightOwl wrote: |
| I believe that the Chen family style usually is the one that focuses on application work as opposed to just forms. |
I thought that also, however, i discovered that every(or most) taichi style have their own applications but it is up to the teacher to teach both, if you only learn the form you can still be considered a "teacher" of the art - doesnt just happen with Taichi actually, it also happens with southern and norther shaolin styles, baguazhang(people dont even imagine the applications for this one and prefer to think about the I-ching), and others.
Form without the conditioning, application, without concepts, and without scaling to spontaneous display, is completely useless, taichi or not...
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<<Kajukenbopr>> Be humble, train hard, fight dirty |
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on the post.
