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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 12126
Location: Houston, TX and/or Van Nuys, CA
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
Quote:
No!! I don't need Hombu approval to conduct a Testing Cycle, that's a separate concern. One in which the Hombu has no say over.

However, every candidate that wishes to attend my Testing Cycle, they'd have to have Hombu approval, in which that specific approval/denial would then be forwarded to me from the Hombu prior to the date of my Testing Cycle.

75% of the SKKA Student body lives not far from the Hombu. The Hombu is located in the San Fernando Valley, which is just north of Hollywood, California. The other 25% live outside of that region...as far away as Tulsa, OK, and as near as Dallas, TX, no further north and/or east than the Lower Midwest.


Sensei8,

Forgive my ignorance and please take no offense but I do not understand why a students instructor isn't in control of when their students test.
I can understand the Hombu having a hand in the test results, as far as oversight, but to say yes or no to a student that they may not have seen and certainly do not see on a weekly basis is very confusing to me.
I am in complete control of my students and when they test or do not test. However any student testing for Yudansha ranks are tested by at least three senior ranks and at least two ranks above the students rank. These tests are video taped and sent to the Hombu for verification purposes only. In the 36+ years I have studied I have only seen one student get denied rank due to the Hombu not agreeing with the instructor. All instructors are of the same mind set that we are in the business of producing the best Karateka possible and only test when we feel that they are ready.
The only other time our Hombu gets involved is when we have a student that is testing for rank close to ours. I am a Rokudan and can test to Yondan without Hombu intervention. However if I feel that a student is ready to test for Godan or Rokudan they must travel to the Hombu to be tested by the board of promotions.
No disrespect, and I'm sure I do not have the whole story, but it seems that your Hombu doesn't grant much trust in their instrcuctors to tell them when a student is ready to test. Not to mention that it is quite unfair to leave the responsibility of a students capability in the hands of people that may only see this student on a few occasions. In our case it may be years as I am 4 states away.

No offense taken, MatsuShinshii, none at all!!

As in anything, we might not like what any governing body enforces or doesn't enforce, it's' the governing bodies right to do however it wants to without permission, and that's the sovereign right of any governing body. Trust me, there's a many of things that our governing body does and doesn't do, but, I've accepted them either out of ignorance and/or loyalty, no matter how blind it might or might not be.

Our Hombu, through the SKKA, and through the authority of our By-Laws, approves each and every Testing Cycle candidate without any exception, and/or ambiguity. No one, within the SKKA network are allowed to test without the explicit approval of the Hombu...NO ONE!!

CI's are quite involved in their students Testing Cycle. After all, without the CI, no student can ever test without having first learned something about Shindokan. CI's have to petition the Hombu on the behalf of their students. However, the very first thing that a CI must do for any student, for any upcoming Testing Cycle, within their own dojo, is to present a list to the Hombu of every prospective candidate. That very list, is that CI's petition for their students, and in that petition, separately, and/or in whole, are either denied or approved for that said Testing Cycle. As it's said, the CI knows each of their students intimately because the CI handles their students on a daily basis.

As to the reasons why? The summation of 'why' is to the summation of 'because'!! While it might appear that the Hombu's quite untrustful towards each and every CI/dojo within the SKKA network, it doesn't come without any history. While I don't apologize for the SKKA/Hombu, I do agree that the SKKA/Hombu IS untrustful, but for their own reasons.

According to SKKA/Hombu history, in the earliest days of the SKKA/Hombu, the given trust to the very, very few networked dojo's was quickly abdicated by them in usurping ways. These dojo's were founded to be guilty of the following:

1. Testing students on a weekly basis, and not on a quarter basis, as it's stated in the SKKA By-Laws.

2. Re-Producing their own Shindokan certificates.

3. Re-Producing their own Shindokan Inkan's

The Hombu, by it's authority, is the only one that can produce a Shindokan certificate of any type, and in addition, the Hombu is the only one that can apply any and all Inkan stamps on any Shindokan certificate. In that, and this has been done ever since the Hombu opened its doors, all certificates are produced at the Hombu, on a need basis, by Soke, at first, then Dai-Soke, but only after Soke retired. Certificates are now produced in the modern way...Computer; rage of the page, I suppose. The Inkan's were also produced by Soke, and by him alone. Both the certificates, and the computer that now produces them, as well as the Inkan's are kept under a lock and key, and only the Executive Team has access to them.

Trust can be a fragile thing; one not given easily, if at all!! Once that trust has been violated, as it was back then, it's almost never given again. What happened back then was a serious matter, and a serious threat, as well as a serious breach; one that can't ever be repeated.

This is our way, and has been our way since 1957. Sure, I can, as Kaicho, abolish the ways and means that we manage our Testing Cycle and the like, but, I'm not inclined or obligated to, and I doubt that I ever will be.



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MatsuShinshii
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 272

Styles: Matsumura Shorin Ryu, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo

PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

No offense taken, MatsuShinshii, none at all!!

As in anything, we might not like what any governing body enforces or doesn't enforce, it's' the governing bodies right to do however it wants to without permission, and that's the sovereign right of any governing body. Trust me, there's a many of things that our governing body does and doesn't do, but, I've accepted them either out of ignorance and/or loyalty, no matter how blind it might or might not be.

Our Hombu, through the SKKA, and through the authority of our By-Laws, approves each and every Testing Cycle candidate without any exception, and/or ambiguity. No one, within the SKKA network are allowed to test without the explicit approval of the Hombu...NO ONE!!

CI's are quite involved in their students Testing Cycle. After all, without the CI, no student can ever test without having first learned something about Shindokan. CI's have to petition the Hombu on the behalf of their students. However, the very first thing that a CI must do for any student, for any upcoming Testing Cycle, within their own dojo, is to present a list to the Hombu of every prospective candidate. That very list, is that CI's petition for their students, and in that petition, separately, and/or in whole, are either denied or approved for that said Testing Cycle. As it's said, the CI knows each of their students intimately because the CI handles their students on a daily basis.

As to the reasons why? The summation of 'why' is to the summation of 'because'!! While it might appear that the Hombu's quite untrustful towards each and every CI/dojo within the SKKA network, it doesn't come without any history. While I don't apologize for the SKKA/Hombu, I do agree that the SKKA/Hombu IS untrustful, but for their own reasons.

According to SKKA/Hombu history, in the earliest days of the SKKA/Hombu, the given trust to the very, very few networked dojo's was quickly abdicated by them in usurping ways. These dojo's were founded to be guilty of the following:

1. Testing students on a weekly basis, and not on a quarter basis, as it's stated in the SKKA By-Laws.

2. Re-Producing their own Shindokan certificates.

3. Re-Producing their own Shindokan Inkan's

The Hombu, by it's authority, is the only one that can produce a Shindokan certificate of any type, and in addition, the Hombu is the only one that can apply any and all Inkan stamps on any Shindokan certificate. In that, and this has been done ever since the Hombu opened its doors, all certificates are produced at the Hombu, on a need basis, by Soke, at first, then Dai-Soke, but only after Soke retired. Certificates are now produced in the modern way...Computer; rage of the page, I suppose. The Inkan's were also produced by Soke, and by him alone. Both the certificates, and the computer that now produces them, as well as the Inkan's are kept under a lock and key, and only the Executive Team has access to them.

Trust can be a fragile thing; one not given easily, if at all!! Once that trust has been violated, as it was back then, it's almost never given again. What happened back then was a serious matter, and a serious threat, as well as a serious breach; one that can't ever be repeated.

This is our way, and has been our way since 1957. Sure, I can, as Kaicho, abolish the ways and means that we manage our Testing Cycle and the like, but, I'm not inclined or obligated to, and I doubt that I ever will be.




I appreciate the explanation Sensei8. Sounds like you had good reasons to create your by laws.

Ours are not that different. We tell our Hombu who will be on the next testing cycle and include their present rank, time in rank and a breif description of their improvement for Dan ranks.
Our certificates are similar to yours. The original certificates that I received were done by hand and now they are done via computer. It takes 3 senior Dan to promote a Yudansha. My signature and two witness signatures are on the certificates (original and copy). These are then sent to the Hombu along with a video of the testing as proof. They are then stamped. The inkan goes across the original, log book and copy. The original has 1/3 of the stamp at the top of the certificate, a third (middle) is on the log book next to their name, rank, date, and promoting Shinshii, and the last 1/3rd is on the bottom of the copy. The copy stays at the Hombu and the original is sent back to the instructor. The student may test in January and not receive his certificate until February but it is usually a faster process only taking around two weeks. Oh and I forgot, Soke's stamp is placed above the three signing Shinshii's stamp as proof of approval.
This may have come about due to similar circumstances but it's been this way for as long as I have been studying the art.
Because of this I think the trust factor is covered because if your name, date, rank, and instructor is not present in the log book the certificate is not recognized by the association.
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goju1971
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 26 Dec 2016
Posts: 6
Location: DFW, Texas
Styles: Goju-Ryu

PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's funny, I too run what I consider a no nonsense karate school, what I consider traditional. I don't know that I've had anyone leave me for a McDojo (that I know of!), but those schools are everywhere so you never know. When I talk to potential students I stress that there's something for everyone out there - you just need to go where you'd be happiest. You watch a new class, an advanced class - does it look like what you want? With that I think most of my students know what they're getting into. But I did lose someone once after training with me two years and I have a feeling it was because he only a red belt and he coasted through a few other styles getting a black belt in a very short time. But he left me for an MMA school because he wanted "real life" training. And I'm kind of okay with that. Not everybody has the patience for karate, traditional anyway.

And to be honest, it's the MMA advertised schools that are becoming McDojos from what I've seen - just as much as do-nothing belt factories. I've seen the promises of "real world" martial arts and they don't do anything different than what we do. But I'm stupid and stubborn enough not to slap an MMA sticker on the window just because the paper tigers on the internet equate it with "I will become a feared fighter and gain the respect and awe of my co-workers." But I guess it all depends on if you're trying to get kids or adults. Ah the business side of this thing is awful sometimes!
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