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The Kyokushin punisher
Yellow Belt
Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 43
Styles: Kyokushin
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 Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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For me this is what kata means...
Compliments the basics they help each other
Opens yur mind to diff tecniques
Breathing...Bas Rutten still does Katas hes UFC/MMA
Bunki
Footwork
If you are comfortable in yur stances then u are not doin it right.
Im not tryin to insult with what u are sayin but for me this is what it means im sure there are alot more reasons but then again im only a 4th Kyu so what do i know. |
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MizuRyu
Green Belt
Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 381
Location: Michigan
Styles: Present: Judo/Boxing, Past: Ryu-Te, Tang Soo Do, Wing Chun, BJJ
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| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Do you mean people who don't practice Kata do not have proper and good technique? |
Not at all, but it doesn't hurt now does it?
It's a solitary exercise, meant to sharpen your understanding of proper form. It's just a series of techniques compacted into a convenient little 'form' that you can practice on your own. They have purpose. The way I see it, the creators of these arts knew a lot more about them than we do, and I trust their knowledge and intent. EVERYTHING has a purpose in an art, one way or the other it's meant to help you and strengthen your understanding of the art in it's entirety. Of course, your personal level of dedication is up to you, and no one else.
_________________
"They look up, without realizing they're standing in the palm of your hand"
"I burn alive to keep you warm" |
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parkerlineage
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 948
Location: Redding, CA
Styles: American Kenpo - 12 years; Danzan Ryu Ju Jitsu - Starting! (Dabbled in Wushu, Eagle Claw)
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| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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Anybody who says that kata isn't effective in fighting hasn't seen me fight!
I won my first intermediate tournament with a technique straight from the kata I was in the process of learning. I scored a pivotal point in a junior black competition with the opening technique of the video I posted on here.
Kata is karate. All techinque is in kata; all principles, all theories, are expressed through the movements, which are really just strung together to make them more understandable.
Besides, you can't spell karate without kata.  (I'm so clever)
_________________
American Kenpo Karate- First Degree Black Belt
"He who hesitates, meditates in a horizontal position."
Ed Parker |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 13977
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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Jeff5 made some good points about the books by Abernethy. He has taken kata and applied it completely for combat purposes, with 4 stages of training.
I have done forms for quite some time, and have just recently found out about bunkai. I wondered why the Korean styles didn't have bunkai. I have decided to create my own for the forms, to give the forms a meaning.
Perhaps you have had the similar problems that I have, and I intend to rectify this by research and study.
_________________
Success is where preparation meets opportunity.
www.chiefswarpath.com |
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shinnekodo
Orange Belt
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 236
Location: Georgia
Styles: shin neko~do goju~ryu
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| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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If anyone seriously thinks that kata is useless, ineffective, etc I would recommend that they read "The Way of Kata:A Comprehensive Guide to Deciphering Martial Applications" by Lawrence Kane and Kris Wilder.
They really go in-depth into the examination and study of kata and prove that kata is anything but useless or ineffective. |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 13977
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, and I research Medieval Combat
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:32 am Post subject: |
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I think this is both jeff5's and Tokkan's first set of posts, so welcome to KF!
_________________
Success is where preparation meets opportunity.
www.chiefswarpath.com |
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alsey
Purple Belt
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 501
Location: UK
Styles: shotokan (2nd dan), jujitsu (3rd kyu), kendo (1st dan).
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:29 am Post subject: Re: The Uselessness of Kata |
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man, where do i start? if you go to the jiu jitsu forum, i wrote a lot of what i would say here in the thread 'throws and groundwork in shotokan?'.
about a century ago master itosu decided to teach children karate, but he didn't want them to get injured so he heavily modified the way the art was taught. he changed it from a complete fighting system to a simple strike-block system, and anything that couldn't be changed into a strike or a block was just left unexplained in the kata. the kata are almost entirely grappling and throwing techniques, but these techniques are rarely if ever taught in modern karate.
i recommend the book Bunkai-Jutsu by iain abernethy. it should give you a better idea of what kata are about, and how to turn them into effective combat training.
| Tokkan wrote: |
When was the last time you saw a huge amount of Kata movements used in kumite and contest?
Conclusion? Hardly ever if at all.
The opening sequence of Heian Nidan is never performed in kumite. The opening sequences of Kanku Dai is never performed in kumite. The one legged sequence in Gankau is never performed in kumite. |
kumite has a lot of rules, and limits the competitors to long range striking. so what you see in kumite is kickboxing because that is what works at long range. real combat, which is what karate was designed for, usually starts or ends up at close range. this is the range kata deals with. as i said, most of the kata is grappling and throwing, and you're not allowed to do that in kumite.
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Scientific evidence shows conclusively the more reponses you know to a given stimulus (an attack) the slower your reaction time. |
indeed. that is why the old masters practiced just one or two kata in their entire lifetime. if you believe what they say, each kata is pretty much a martial art in itself.
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Boxers, Muay Thai fighters, UFC fighters etc do not practise Kata as a general rule and are yet highly capable fighters. |
boxers and kickboxers are restricted by similar rules that modern karateka are restricted by. UFC fighters don't practice kata, but some of the techniques they use are in the kata. trips, sweeps, throws, a lot of the clinch stuff, its in the kata in one form or another. practice of kata is not necessary, but it is helpful if you don't have trainers who are highly experienced fighters (as UFC fighters do). don't know how to do a hip throw? look it up in the kata and practice it. the problem is that today most people don't know where to look or what to look for.
kata is like a book of techniques and principles. except instead of just reading it, you do it, meaning you gain a better understanding of it and ability to do it. once you've read the book/done the kata, you then practice it with an opponent realistically until you become proficient at it.
_________________
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana
Last edited by alsey on Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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alsey
Purple Belt
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 501
Location: UK
Styles: shotokan (2nd dan), jujitsu (3rd kyu), kendo (1st dan).
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| Tokkan wrote: |
Each movement is supposed to be used for literal fighting unless you consider kata just dancing? |
kata movements are ideal movements. they are techniques performed 'ideally' to convey a principle. naturally you're going to deviate from the ideal in a real fight, but you'll be using the same principle and probably the same technique.
_________________
"Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana |
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Rick_72
Orange Belt
Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Posts: 213
Styles: Shorin Ryu
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:40 am Post subject: |
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Do you realize that there are old guys on Okinawa that are "master's" of different disciplines of Karate that were made to study and practice a single Kata for 10 years before they were allowed to learn another one? What does that tell you about modern day thinking in the arts? What it tells me is that I have a lot more deep thinking to do before I've unlocked the bunkai of any of the Kata that I practice.
If Kata is useless that why should I train in any martial art at all? What does practicing any technique whatsoever do for my skill in fighting or self defence?
I submit that while the fighters that you speak of may not be practicing Kata in the form you and I understand, they most certainly are practicing pre arranged technique's to counter specific attacks. And what is Kata?
Kata teach's balance, concentration, discipline, and helps with conditioning and flexibility. It takes the basic technique's of your particular style of maritial arts and applies them to situations so that you build muscle memory of that particular body movement. For a technique to work does it have to be executed flawlessly? Heck no, it just has to be executed with good timing. But the more your actually practicing those technique's the less you have to think about which one to perform. Try this:
Stand in front of someone and let them throw strikes at you, any strikes they want to. See how you react. With your background, and the years you've been involved in training you should be blocking and countering almost simultaneously without thought about 80% of the time.
I enjoy practicing Kata, simply because it allows me the ability to train in Karate alone. When I'm on a deployment, or if I'm sitting in my house bored I can jump up and practice in any room of my house or hotel and practice those aspects that I mentioned above. Martial arts that have no Kata are nearly impossible to practice without some sort of special equipment, or a partner.
Martial arts are about reaction without thought. Which comes from muscle memory, which is built through repetition, which Kata provides. |
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Zorbasan
Green Belt
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 423
Location: Adelaide
Styles: Shotokan and ICHF Hapkido plus any other style i can get into a seminar on
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:41 am Post subject: |
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i like the point of kata being able to train alone,
sure i can walk up and down the back yard doing basics, but i feel that with kata, its like a movie that you have watched a hundred times, but still pick up something new each time.
the more you do a kata, the more you will understand it, and understanding kata is understanding karate.
your point was kata is useless in kumite, which it may be (i dont beleive so, but i do beleive that there could be better ways to train for kumite than kata), i move that kumite is useless in karate. to know karate is to know how to defend oneself. i can go to any bar and find someone that can put up a decent fight.
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Now you use head for something other than target. |
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on the post.
