The Uselessness of Kata

Tokkan · White Belt

I am new here. I have been training in Karate for over 20 years and hold 4th Dan.

In recent years I have come to the conclusion that practising Kata is ineffective.

I know this will upset traditionalists but I had to ask myself some questions:

When was the last time you saw a huge amount of Kata movements used in kumite and contest?

Conclusion? Hardly ever if at all.

The opening sequence of Heian Nidan is never performed in kumite. The opening sequences of Kanku Dai is never performed in kumite. The one legged sequence in Gankau is never performed in kumite...

If one does a thorough analysis of all the Kata one will soon see the vast majority of techniques are never used or are not able to be used.

Kata may be ok for physical exercise but as far as training for kumite its ineffective. Why practise techniques you will never use or cannot be used?

Scientific evidence shows conclusively the more reponses you know to a given stimulus (an attack) the slower your reaction time. (see A Study of Reaction and Response Time In Subject Control Training By Joe Ferrera):

A quote:

The object of this study was to examine aspects of human performance and how it relates to reaction and response time. We have discussed what reaction time and response time are pointing out the differences of each. We know reaction time is the time it takes between perception of a threat and initiation of an action to counter the perceived threat. Response time adds to this the time it takes to complete the initiated action. This study demonstrates that with only two choices, i.e. forearm block or wrist block, the time it takes for humans to perceive, evaluate, formulate a plan, and initiate action increases by as much as 23% over a single choice. The more choices in response techniques the mind has to evaluate for a given threat the longer it takes to initiate action. This study supports the theory of teaching fewer response techniques to cover a wider range of threat cues. By providing the officer the least amount of choices in responding to a threat you increase the officer’s ability to respond faster. As instructors we should be teaching effective techniques that apply to many situations thereby reducing the number of choices an officer has to evaluate. Teaching fewer techniques and using the limited training time for more repetitions gives an added advantage of increasing the officer’s confidence in his, or her, ability to perform the techniques under stress. - Joe Ferrera

Therefore Bruce Lee is right. Too many techniques are detrimental not beneficial.

Scientifically Kata practise does not hold under scrutiny.

Boxers, Muay Thai fighters, UFC fighters etc do not practise Kata as a general rule and are yet highly capable fighters.

Again Bruce Lee was right Kata/forms are ineffective

scottnshelly · KF VIP

I went through this phase also a couple of years ago. I even made it a point to try to forget all of the forms that I knew. I read Bruce Lee's and others' comments about forms and decided to focus more on combat oriented techniques. So, I'm not going to argue and tell you that you are wrong.

After a period of about four years without forms, I realized that what was missing was the forms. Now that I have them back in my practice, I feel more accomplished. There are benefits to everything that we do.

There is no question that most of the techniques in forms will not be used in combat as we see and practice them. There are other benefits though.

My conclusion is that forms are not useful to you right now, they were not useful to me a couple of years ago, they are not useful to some others. On the other hand, they are very useful to some.

Brandon Fisher · Pre-Black Belt

I think that you need to study it deeper. You can't look at just the literal movement shown in the kata.
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Brandon Fisher
Seijitsu Shin Do

Kieran-Lilith · Brown Belt

I totally and completely disagree. I cannot say I have trained for twenty years, I cannot even say I've trained for ten years. I've trained for almost two and a half years, so if I do accidentally insult you, please forgive me. I have a long path ahead of me, and perhaps my current conclusions will change.

Kata seems to be a very touchy subject. Many people do it just because they were told to do it, so they do. Others look deep into it, and quite often, many don't even practice it.

While boxers, Muay Thai fighters, and UFC fighters are all highly capable, that does not go to say that a traditional karate fighter is any less capable. I firmly believe in kata, and it is known as the heart or the bible of the martial arts in many traditional schools. Kata, even if you do not use it effectively in kumite or contest (neither of which happens to be my purpose for training), is a strength builder. It teaches control of one's body, and it teaches awareness of your own body. For example, we will occasionally go through kata very, very slowly, holding the stances and techniques for minutes on end. It builds strength and control of technique. Kata teaches awareness because you learn where your body moves and how the techniques fit to your body.

Besides that, for many people, kata can be a spiritual exercise. It relaxes them and relives them of stress in a safe and fulfilling way.

Mentally, it creates the stimulus of thinking about possible applications of the techniques found within kata. Even if there are apparently no applicable techniques to be found, one has still used the mind to try to problem solve and creatively find a solution.

Again, if I have offended you in any way, I apologize. But I really wanted to answer this post because I feel very strongly about kata.
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He who gains a victory over other men is strong; but he who gains a victory over himself is all powerful Lao-tsu

Tokkan · White Belt

DancingSteve · Yellow Belt

The main conflict between people who want to say kata is ineffective and those of us who love kata lies in our purpose for training in karate.

On your side, you obviously practice karate to be a good fighter. You want to practice it to fight other people. The theoretical 'fights' that we encounter during kata do not make sense to you and thusly you regard them as ineffective kumite practice.

I started karate in 1987 when I was in the 7th grade. There were the kids who like kumite, and the kids who liked kata. You know who you are..I can obviously pick out who Tokkan was. I happened to like kata. I enjoyed envisioning the bunkai and perfecting the technique.

Perfect technique and body mechanics/dynamics don't to a bit of good to work on your timing. Sparring doesn't do a bit of good for body physics and proper technique. The advantages are interchangeable, as are the disadvantages.

I recently read a story in a Grappling magazine about how Traditional Karate students have one of the best 'mental' trainings for self-defense above all BJJ, UFC, Muay Thai practitioners. Notice I said self-defense..not kumite. Not point fighting...not UFC fighting. Self-Defense/Preservation. Because in practicing kata...and actually envisioning the bunkai..you defend your life and kill opponents over and over again in your mind. If you are TRULY immersing yourself in the kata. You gain a respect for defense, and offense...and by envisioning the bunkai you gain a respect for how it must be to actually defend your life...even if the situations are not ABSOLUTELY plausible in todays world.
So the point of the article was that a Traditional Karate practitioner was much more mentally prepared to defend themselves, and much LESS likely to wade into a fight they don't need to. Whereas sometimes people who train in more hands-on fighting styles get a bit cocky or overconfident because they are all about 'testing' themselves against others..instead of 'testing' against themselves.

So, fighting other fighters...gives you training in timing, what works..what doesnt...and you run the risk of becoming a one-trick pony. You also have the advantage of actually being tested by another breathing, thinking human being.

So it really boils down to what I mentioned before. Do you train in karate for the mental aspect...or simply to be physically a better fighter than other people?

Tokkan · White Belt

I dont believe a Karate school is a Church.

Karate is a Martial Art.... a warlike art

One practises means to warfare

jeff5 · White Belt

First, let me say I'm tradtionally not a Karateka. My interests have mainly been in Kali, JKD, Silat.

In my research into different arts, I've come across lots of people who are doing some amazing things with Kata. Whether you believe that they're actually rediscovering the meanings of the kata movements, (and I do) or reading new things in them, the techniques are undeniably effective.

Please note, I'm not talking about sport here. Whether its sport Karate, Muay Thai, UFC, BJJ, that's a whole different ball game, and the Kata do not teach you how to be a better boxer, kickboxer, grappler, competitor, etc. (although there are some overall principles that you can apply for sport) If you want to do that, and they are great arts in my opinion, study one of the above.

The best one I've found so far is here:

http://www.iainabernethy.com/

Take a look at his site and some of his books and DVDs. Great stuff.

I'd also recommend the book The Way of Kata by Lawrence Kane and Chris Wilder. (just search for it on Amazon)

Rick Clark has also done some amazing things with interpreting kata. His site is here.

http://www.ao-denkou-kai.org/

There's a lot more out there, but these are good starting points.

The main point, is that kata itself isn't useless. Its what we've been doing with it (or haven't been), that's the problem. In my research, I truly believe that Kata has been misinterpreted for a very long time, and we are just now rediscovering its true meaning.

But that's only one piece. Kata was never meant as the sole means to train for combat. Once you understand the applications of the Kata, you need to spar with them at varying and escalating degrees of resistance from your training partner. Ian says this in his book, but in the other arts I study we stress that techinque is fine (we do forms in Silat, they're called Jurus), but if you don't train against a resisting oponent, you will not be prepared for real combat. Its the same with Karate Kata.

That's what my research has led me to believe anyway. I'm actually starting to study Karate now based on this. There are some truly devastating techniques in Kata, we just have to unlock them, and train them.

To sum up, to make Kata useful for practical self defense, you need to do the following.

-Learn, discover, research, have someone show you the more effective interpretations of the Kata movements

-Visualize those movements when you do your kata

-Have a partner(s) that you can practice the Bunkai with and experiment to find new Bunkai

-Start sparring and training the movements with varying degree of resistance. The highest level of this according to Ian's book, which I agree with, is all out. (not literally, there are of course still things you can't and wouldn't ever do to your training partner)

Again, let me stress, I'm talking about Self Defense here. Not sport. There's nothing wrong with sport, and I have the utmost respect for the athletes who train hard to compete. They can be some incredibile Martial Artists and fighters. But Kata was not made for Kumite (at least not the Kumite that's normally done), and it was not made to enhance anyone's abilities as a competitor. Its a record of survival techniques passed down to us by people who actually had to use this stuff to defend themselves.

MizuRyu · Green Belt

Kata and forms are vessels through which you understand the application and proper execution of technique.
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"They look up, without realizing they're standing in the palm of your hand"

"I burn alive to keep you warm"

Tokkan · White Belt

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