There is both an Okinawan and Japanese style of Goju Ryu?

Prototype · Green Belt

There's this claim on Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forum that Goju Ryu has both a Japanese watered down version, similiar to the other Japanese Karate styles, while the Okinawan style of Goju Ryu is more tough training, akin to Kyokushin.

They claim UFC fighter Gunnar Nelson trained the Japanese one.

Is there any validity to these claims, and how would you know in advance which is which?

Wado Heretic · Green Belt

I would be hesitant to call the Japanese variation "watered down" largely because of the history of Goju-Ryu after the death of Miyagi Chojun. There are many variations of Okinawan Goju-Ryu, and each with its own particular flavour; depending on when the founder of said branch trained with Miyagi, the kata and variations of said kata they were taught, and the hojo undo that was emphasised. Japanese Goju-Ryu, or Goju-Kai (one of the tell tale signs by the way), in contrast was essentially the work of one man; Yamaguchi Gōgen.

The main differences are the introductory kata; Okinawan Goju-Ryu largely uses the Gikisai/Fyukyugata kata, where as Goju-Kai or Japanese Goju Ryu makes use of the Taikyoku series as modified by Yamaguchi.

Japanese Goju-Ryu also tends to favour conventional Jiyu Kumite as would not be unfamiliar to a practitioner of Shotokan or Wado-Ryu, as well as Yakusoku Kumite. In contrast Okinawan Goju-Ryu favours Kakei Kumite, Bunkai, and its own form of of Free Sparring known as Irikumi, which can either be light-contact (Ju) or full-contact (Go).

Edit: I have also noticed that Okinawan Goju-Ryu schools are more likely to offer kobujutsu, or require some familiarity with weaponry as a grading point. However, that is far from universal, as I know of a Goju-Kai affiliate who does teach Kobujutsu.
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R. Keith Williams

Prototype · Green Belt

JR 137 · Black Belt

There are no "watered down" Japanese karate styles, only teachers who water it down by emphasizing different aspects IMO.

Goju-Kai (Japanese Goju) was started by Gogen Yamaguchi, one of Chojun Miyagi's top students. Yamaguchi brought Goju to mainland Japan, possibly/probably by Miyagi's request.

Don't buy into the hype of MMA forums, or honestly any other forum. I hate to say it, but pretty much every MMA forum I've seen bashes all traditional martial arts. They typically respect Kyokushin because it's bare knuckle, but they'll usually say something along the lines of if you HAVE to practice karate, Kyokushin is acceptable. Nonsense. Again, that's not all MMA forums and everyone on them, but if you read enough you'll quickly see a pattern. There's "watered down" everything out there. MMA included.

I always give the same advice to people looking into martial arts - don't pick a style, pick a school. No two teachers will teach exactly the same. Even within an organization, there is variation on the atmosphere of dojos. I'm in Seido Juku. The dojo I train at has about 20 or so adults in our mid 30s-late 40s. We train hard. We spar hard. Some take it easier than others due to chronic injuries catching up with them, but we're definitely not tap tap karate. That's why I joined and why I stay. There's dojos in the organization who are full of kids (and adults) doing tournament kata and point fighting. The syllabus is the same, they're tested for black belt ranks by the same person (our founder, Tadashi Nakamura), and are held to the same standards. But the day in and day out emphasis is completely different. Nothing wrong with that, so long as that's what the students are looking for.

Keeping that in mind, if I was like the people you referred to in the other forum (not every one of them) and I walked in to one of the "kids" dojos, I'd say Seido Juku is a watered down kids' style. Meanwhile the people at the dojo I go to would shrug their shoulders and keep on keepin' on.

JR 137 · Black Belt

To answer your "how do you know" post - visit the dojo and watch a few classes. Watch them spar, watch them do drills, etc. Ask if they compete and how often. Pay attention to the demographics - is it full of kids, college aged students or adults. Are kids training alongside adults constantly. A few visits should tell you enough about the atmosphere of the dojo without even talking to the teacher.

Prototype · Green Belt

Prototype · Green Belt

Wado Heretic · Green Belt

All I could suggest, as also mentioned by JR 137, is if you can just go along and watch or try it.

I would say that if an instructor is vague with regards to questions that should not have a difficult answer; for example the origin of their system (if it is not Koryu) then that is a warning sign.

I would be hesitant to call Japanese Karate "watered down", rather I would say it is different. For example, many of the Japanese schools have a shared heritage of Karate and Jujutsu; Wado-ryu and Shindō jinen-ryū just to mention two. As a result their methods of training have more in common with koryu bujutsu, than say the more Chinese influenced methods of Okinawan karate.

As a result, this does mean that Hojo Undo and Bunkai were neglected for a time in Japanese karate. However, with the popularity of Kyokushin Hojo Undo did return to the fore, and the increasing knowledge of Bunkai as a process has impacted Japanese Karate as much as it has Western Karate.

Now, Funakoshi did attempt to make his art more palatable to the Japanese people and authorities; and what they wanted was essentially a Japanese boxing discipline in contrast to that of Western Pugilism and Chinese Kempo. He also adopted methods from Koryu Jujutsu, as influenced by his assistants Ohtsuka and Konishi who for example were the initial innovators of Yakasoku kumite; which they did as they felt Karate lacked the attack and defence dynamic of bujutsu. A pinch of salt must also be taken when regarding Funakoshi as the reason he became the most successful karateka in Japan was because he was the best salesman; he largely gave the public what they wanted. He did attempt to rectify, and do what might be called damage control through remarking on what the karate he taught was, and what it included, thus a lot of confusion when people read his words and then look at the karate that is taught in his name.
_________________
R. Keith Williams

JR 137 · Black Belt

I'm not an expert on Funakoshi and Shotokan. I've read his autobiography and a few other things by and about him. Everyone has an opinion.

What I gather is that he made changes in order to get karate accepted by the Japanese government so it could be taught in the school system. Obviously things needed to be "watered down" for kids, but not for adults. The biggest change was probably the elimination of joint locks, chokes and throws. This IMO was most likely due to making karate a distinctly different art than Judo, which had been accepted by the Japanese government. If Funakoshi was pushing an art that had a lot of these things in it, the government would most likely say karate and judo were too similar and pass on karate being included in the curriculum. That's not to say it wasn't taught outside the school system.

Everything changes. With change, there's almost always good and bad. I've read some stuff from Funakoshi's earliest students who became probably the first generation of Shotokan teachers. Teachers who taught at the college level were reportedly very harsh - they did a lot of body conditioning (not cardio, but "toughening up") and full contact sparring. Students typically didn't make it through the first half hour. If they left during the first class, they were never allowed to come back; but they weren't looked down on. If they left after the first class, they weren't allowed back, but they were also ridiculed as they were leaving and later scorned by members of the club. I wish I could remember the source of that information; he is a highly regarded teacher who was talking about back when he started vs how he teaches today.

It's changed in a good way. It's not an exclusive club where you have to prove you're tough enough to be included. People get out of it what they put into it.

Bringing this full circle, there's dojos out there for everyone the n just about every style. Some retain those harsh training methods, some have zero contact, and everything in between. Karate and martial arts as a whole has softened up a bit. But every dojo is different. There are quite a few Shotokan dojos that are full contact. Compared to all of Shotokan I'd guess they're in the minority, but that doesn't mean they're nonexistent.

I'd characterize Japanese Goju I've seen as somewhere between Okinawan Goju and Kyokushin. I'm pretty sure not every single Goju Kai dojo is like that.

Prototype · Green Belt

Well, Funkakoshi banned "free sparring" for all students (only 1 step and 3 step sparring was allowed). If that's not softening an art I don't know what is.

The one good contribution was his personal refinements of the katas. I greatly appreciate the Shotokan Katas over Okinawas, especially over Shito Ryus shaking body movements.

In ITF we have a sine wave/knee spring, which was introduced in the 80s to further separate TaeKwon-Do from Karate. Shotokan katas are the purest to me, with proper hip rotation and nothing fancy in between.

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