To Bow or not to Bow (?)

tigerstyle18 · Orange Belt

Let's not forget that Jesus himself got on his hands and knees and washed the feet of his disciples. Not to mention he insisted on being baptized which was unnecessary.

tigerstyle18 · Orange Belt

To KickChick

If you do teach Sunday school, then you know we're not all damned. Try the most famous of Bible verses, John 3:16-17
Maybe I missunderstood.
Just a thought,
God Bless

Taikudo-ka · Green Belt

"Nowhere in the Bible are we told to resort to violence in defense of ourselves. "

Hehehe...

Exodus 15, from the Song of Moses, aka The Victory Chant

Yah is my strength, my song,
he is my salvation.
...
Yahweh is a warrior;
Yahweh is his name.
...
Your right hand, Yahweh, shows majestic power,
your right hand, Yahweh, shatters the enemy.
So great your splendor, you crush your foes;
you unleash your fury, and it devours them like stubble.

etc,etc.

Yahweh (aka Yah, Jah, Jehovah, YHWH, and other variants of the same) was the War God par excellence in the Torah (first part of "Old Testament"), appearing as a pillar of smoke or a great flame, riding at the front of battle on the legendary "Ark of the Covenant" and lending his followers invincible fighting power in battle against their enemies.

Question for Muslims: How is bowing to the Kaba (a rock) placed by a man (Mohammed), different to bowing in the dojo?

Would not Sura 2 apply here?
"To Allah belong the East and West. So whichever way you turn, there is Allah's face. Indeed, Allah is Omnipresent and Omniscient."

So, as a Muslim, all your bows are to Allah, even in the dojo. Unless you purposefully meant otherwise... in which case you might question the strength of your faith.

If the external form of the ritual is the same then you have the opportunity to make it your own, as I see it. You can even direct your "Onegaishimasu" to Allah if you want...

Fortunately at my dojo there are no photographs or idols we are expected to bow to and acknowledge directly. The rest, as I've said, I don't have a problem with.

Ti-Kwon-Leap · Blue Belt

I find it sad that these two kids who sued have learned little about respecting their sport.
To some people, martial arts are nothing more than selfish vehicles to run people over with. I think it's just sad. I would suspect their parents had a bit to do with the whole lawsuit thing. On a side note, people of all religions should strive to find that which is common among us and avoid that which seperates us. WWJD ...indeed.

_________________
Ti-Kwon-Leap
"Annoying the ignorant since 1961"

Taikudo-ka · Green Belt

Tto true, Ti Kwon... I see this a lot, not just with martial arts.

People want to join an organization then totally bend and twist it to suit themselves. I'm open minded and open to debate, but I do think some people go too far.

I think there is a point where a person should perhaps realize that an activity is not right for them and leave, rather than try to change the activity.

At the end of the day, if you want to run around with the ball, join a rugby football club. Don't join a soccer league then moan and gripe about the "no hands" rule.

Crouching Tiger Hidden Dr · White Belt

Like TKD McGee said:
There are two types of bowing:
1 - is to simply show respect/greeting to your opponent/friend/business partner or person in training
2 - an act of reverence to some higher authority i.e. God

And by the way, Muslims bow to the same God Christians and Jews believe in!
We bow to God, a.k.a. Allah, because he is our creator, sustainer and to Him all must return.(Just like Christians and Jews)

Crouching Tiger Hidden Dr · White Belt

In answer, as to why muslims pray facing the ka'ba, it is because God, through Muhammed, commanded us to do so.
It also acts as a focal point for prayer. Otherwise, people would be praying in all directions (How would a mosque be organised, if people could pray anywhere).
Why then, do Christians need to go to Church, why do Jews need to go to the synagogue, if what you say about bowing in a dojo is true?
Previously, muslims had to face the mosque in Jerusalem for prayers, as done by Muhammed (pbuh) himself. However, following a revelation, we were asked to face the ka'bah (which wasn't placed there by Muhammed).
Thus, when muslims pray, we are all together, we are all equal, we all face the same direction in our prayer to God.
(Other forms of prayer don't need to be done facing the Ka'bah i.e. reciting Qur'an, du'ah (private prayer to God))
I admit that I only know the basics of Islam, yet if you have more questions as to the why of Islam? You can go to a lot of Islamic sites and find out.

tessone · Green Belt

While I don't have anything against Muslims or the Islam faith, I would like to say that the gods are not the same. Simply put, the Christian god is a triune god. Three persons in one god, and Christ is one of those persons. Christ is god. Muslims believe Christ was a prophet, but not god. Allah is not Christ, nor are there three persons in one Allah.

Nothing wrong with any of the faiths, but the gods are different.

_________________
Chris Tessone
Brown Belt, Kuk Sool Won

Karateka · Red Belt

If you disect most major religions you will find that they all agree that there is one god. Look at a triume, they are all part of one. Islam, one god. In Hinduism, there is said to be one good, but each way you look at him, there is a different aspect. He is multifaceted, but still one. In Sikhism, there is one god, and his appearence and name is within yourself.

I may be wrong, this is what I have found in my studies and my own quest.

_________________
"Never hit a man while he's down; kick him, its easier"

Sensei Ron Bagley (My Sensei)

TKD_McGee · Purple Belt

New Age hippies will tell you that. They will even tell you to go ahead and blend whatever religon you want to make a God, because 'God' does not care how you find him.

It is simply ridiculous and unfortunate that so much people fall into this path. If that was the reason they why was the Bible written? Christianity is not a religon, it is an Anti-Religon.

_________________
Do unto others, as they done to you.

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