To Roundhouse traditional or to not

northerndragon · Yellow Belt

Mawashi-geri - traditionally done with the ball of foot/toes. I know. I've had prior training in Taekwondo, and from a PERSONAL preference I find the way this lineage does the Roundhouse kick much more efficient, in terms of speed of execution and equally important, structural ease of execution.

Are there others on this forum who've trialed Taekwondo in the past, or currently, who also have noted an ease of execution of their Roundhouse when doing it Korean Style?

An analogy broken down into numerical order:
I find that when: 1- kicking-thigh is brought to parallel to floor then, 2- the lower-leg immediately SNAPS up to parallel or a 45-degree angle than, 3- split second later the Roundhouse is thrown to be much more effective than
--> doing it the traditional way whereby the kicking-thigh is executed:
A-Up to the side, akin to a hurdlers' stretch, and then B- arcing / swinging it around in a telegraphic way as to say nonverbally: "Here comes my roundhouse to your head, get ready to block it."

Lastly, from a personal perspective, I find that the top of my foot is stronger, structurally, then doing the mawashi-geri with the toe/ball of foot.

Seconds count, at least in self-defense, but maybe I'll be attacked for posing this question in the first place. It was merely done for discussion purposes, not to discredit the traditional Mawashi-geri in any way. After all, without traditional technique, it would all just be a sport.

kind regards,
Eric B.

bushido_man96 · KF Sensei

I am having a bit of trouble reading your descriptions. I am not sure what you are differentiating between these two kicks.

I kick with the top of the foot, or the ball, depending on which is needed at the time.

As for the chamber, I do it two ways:
1) with the chambered leg parallel to the floor, and with the chamber held high. The advantage here is that I have more choice of what level I throw the kick at, and I feel that I generate more power with the kick. This method requires more pivot on the base leg, and more body movement. The whole body gets involved in the kick.
2) with the chamber leg held at a 45 degree angle, halfway between a front kick and round kick chamber. This one is good for speed, and tends to be a snappier kick. I also feel that the trajectory of this kick is has more of a predetermined line of attack. Some would refer to this version of the kick as the "Olympic" style round kick.
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northerndragon · Yellow Belt

I was referring to exactly what you are stating in your two types of roundhouse kicks. ..except:
I just described them in the numerical order that I did.
In Addition:
What I may have not been clear enough on was the notion of using the top of the foot for all Roundhouse kicks, due to the strength and structural integrity of the top of the foot. Invariably one can jam their toe(s) depending on the nature of their toes' flexibility. <That is an entirely different topic.

Back to the nature of the Roundhouse preparation. As we both stated, lifting the kicking thigh up parallel to the floor AND/OR lifting the kicking leg until that thigh is parallel to the floor (high), are one-and-the-same. What needs to be clarified is that I was referring to the lower-leg of said roundhouse kick; not the upper thigh of this leg. In Taekwondo/Olympic roundhouse kicks, that thigh is kept "in", not swung out for visual telegraphs to the opponent.

Where a traditional Karate Roundhouse tends to take up precious seconds VS. the Taekwondo (or Olympic) is the "hoisting" of the kicking leg Up-&-Out. An analogy being this: the dog lifting his leg to urinate.< I cannot describe it more succinct than that.
When one does it this way, hoisting the kicking leg up and out, during the heat of competition immediately telegraphs to the opponent. Even if one manages to snap out that roundhouse using this technique, it is still substantially slower than the Olympic/Taekwondo method. Slower by the mere knowledge of the opponent seeing it before the motion of the roundhouse attempts to make contact.

GOM · Orange Belt

Kicking with the ball of the foot is not traditional, but it is done by Shoto schools. This is dangerous and downright silly.

In sport karate, it is far more effective (and safe for both parties) to kick with the instep.

For SD, kicking with the shin against the inside/outside thigh is the way to go.

NewEnglands_KyoSa · Pre-Black Belt

essentially GOM is right. in reality situations the kick would be performed with the shin. for sparring purposes theres not need to drill someone with your shins, thats why you dont see it.
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northerndragon · Yellow Belt

GOM,
by dangerous, did you mean FOR the person executing the Roundhouse with the toe/ball of the foot or for the poor person on the receiving end?

regards.

GOM · Orange Belt

^^ For the person executing the kick with the ball of the foot. I practised shoto based karate for 15 years, but never did the kick with the ball of the foot. I think it is a JKA (and offshots) version.

Dobbersky · Yellow Belt

Ashihara Karate tend to use the shin for the round kicks for Gedan and Chudan Height, whereas instep/shin for Jodan. But we tend to use the shins to block the kicks too. I think Kyokushin also use the shin etc. I believe this was observed in the Matches between Kyokushin and Muay Thai wher Kyokushin came back the Victors

Osu
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northerndragon · Yellow Belt

Interesting replies. Thanks and good food-for-thought to ponder over.

GOM,
By practiced 'Shoto' for fifteen years I assume you're referring to Shotokan? So while you were in the midst of those fifteen years training, what did the Sensei say to you when you would execute the kick with the shin or instep while everyone else in this Shoto(kan?) would do it with the toe/ball of the foot?

Dobbersky,
I've heard that Ashihara is the precursor to Enshin Karate? Something to do with the founder of Enshin being a former Ashihara OR former Kyokushin student. Not sure of the specifics. There's also another offshoot, Kissaki/Kissakai Karate (sp?).

regards,
Eric (ps: I get the feeling it is ''not pc'' to sign off with one's real name??

Zanshin · Member of the Month

How you "chamber" your Mawashi (although personally I don't much care for the expression "chamber") could also be down to where you are in the spectrum of your Karate training.

Bigger moves are often introduced at early stages to teach good form but over time these will give way to more direct and therefore faster techniques.

With regards to what part of the foot you make contact with, I would say practice each and every option.

Whilst practicing shin and/or shin and instep is perhaps better for "you" and is certainly safer in competition, kicking with the ball of foot does bring a different dimension into it, as the leg does not need to travel as far in order to meet the "Kime" point. Good for penetrating guards that would otherwise be an obstruction. This option is certainly favourable if you have got a good sturdy pair of shoes on. Drawback is you limit your range.

As far as it not being traditional, well I am not sure, as it is what is used to execute the mawashi in Unsu.
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